There are several old posts in this blog about the potential to treat some autism using statins; this has nothing to do with their ability to lower cholesterol.
Statins are broadly anti-inflammatory but certain statins do some other particularly clever things. This led me to use Atorvastatin and Fragile-X researchers to use Lovastatin.
Statins are broadly anti-inflammatory but certain statins do some other particularly clever things. This led me to use Atorvastatin and Fragile-X researchers to use Lovastatin.
Fragile X is suggested by an elongated face and big/protruding ears;
other features include MR/ID and autism.
I was recently forwarded a Scottish study showing why Simvastatin does not work in Fragile X syndrome, but Lovastatin does.
Fragile X mental retardation protein (FMR1) acts to regulate translation of specific mRNAs through its binding of eIF4E (see chart below). In people with Fragile X, they lack the FMR1 protein. Boys are worse affected than girls, because females have a second X chromosome and so a "spare" copy of the gene.
Simvastatin does not reduce ERK1/2 or mTORC1 activation in the Fmr1-/y hippocampus.
So ? = Does NOT inhibit
The researchers in Scotland did not test Atorvastatin in their Fragile X study.
The key is to reduce Ras. In the above graphic it questions does Simvastatin inhibit RAS and Rheb.
RASopathies have been covered in this blog. Too much of the Ras protein is a common feature of much ID/MR. Investigating RAS took me to PAK1 inhibitors and the experimental drug FRAX486. This drug was actually developed to treat Fragile X; it is now owned by Roche. At least one person is using FRAX486 to treat autism.
You might wonder why the researchers do not just try Lovastatin in humans with Fragile X. Unfortunately, Lovastatin was never approved as a drug in Scotland, or indeed many other countries. Some researchers just assumed they could substitute Simvastatin, which on paper looks a very similar drug and one that crosses the blood brain barrier better than Lovastatin.
The cholesterol-lowering drug lovastatin corrects neurological phenotypes in animal models of fragile X syndrome (FX), a commonly identified genetic cause of autism and intellectual disability. The therapeutic efficacy of lovastatin is being tested in clinical trials for FX, however the structurally similar drug simvastatin has been proposed as an alternative due to an increased potency and brain penetrance. Here, we perform a side-by-side comparison of the effects of lovastatin and simvastatin treatment on two core phenotypes in the Fmr1-/y mouse model. We find that while lovastatin normalizes excessive hippocampal protein synthesis and reduces audiogenic seizures (AGS) in the Fmr1-/y mouse, simvastatin does not correct either phenotype. These results caution against the assumption that simvastatin is a valid alternative to lovastatin for the treatment of FX.
Although we propose the beneficial effect of lovastatin stems from the inhibition of ERK1/2-driven protein synthesis, it is important to note that statins are capable of affecting several biochemical pathways. Beyond the canonical impact on cholesterol biosynthesis, statins also decrease isoprenoid intermediates including farnesyl and geranylgeranyl pyrophosphates that regulate membrane association for many proteins including the small GTPases Ras, Rho and Rac [18, 46, 48, 49]. The increase in protein synthesis seen with simvastatin could be linked to altered posttranslational modification of these or other proteins. Indeed, although we see no change in mTORC1-p70S6K signaling, other studies have shown an activation of the PI3 kinase pathway that could be contributing to this effect [32]. However, our comparison of lovastatin and simvastatin shows that there is a clear difference in the correction of pathology in the Fmr1-/y model, suggesting that the impact on ERK1/2 is an important factor in terms of pharmacological treatment for FX. There are many reasons why statins would be an attractive option for treating neurodevelopmental disorders such as FX. They are widely prescribed worldwide for the treatment of hypercholesterolemia and coronary heart disease [50], and safely used for longterm treatment in children and adults [46]. However, our study suggests that care should be taken when considering which statin should be trialed for the treatment of FX and other disorders of excess Ras. Although the effect of different statins on cholesterol synthesis has been well documented, the differential impact on Ras-ERK1/2 signaling is not well established. We show here that, contrary to lovastatin, simvastatin fails to inhibit the RasERK1/2 pathway in the Fmr1-/y hippocampus, exacerbates the already elevated protein synthesis phenotype, and does not correct the AGS phenotype. These results are significant for considering future clinical trials with lovastatin or simvastatin for FX or other disorders of excess Ras. Indeed, clinical trials using simvastatin for the treatment of NF1 have shown little promise, while trials with lovastatin show an improvement in cognitive deficits [28-30]. We suggest that simvastatin could be similarly ineffective in FX and may not be a suitable substitute for lovastatin in further clinical trials.
Conclusion
If you are treating Fragile X, best to start with Lovastatin and see if it helps. In theory it might also help NF1 (Neurofibromatosis Type 1).
It looks to me that Atorvastatin also inhibits the relevant pathway and does much more besides that (PTEN, BCL2 etc)
Here is another interesting coincidence with regards to autism, blood pressure, and interventions that seem to lower blood pressure (Bumetanide, Agmatine, Verapamil, and drugs that attenuate the HPA Axis) in that beta-hydroxybutyrate also directly lowers blood pressure:
ReplyDeletePress Release:
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/10/181016132006.htm
Paper:
https://www.cell.com/cell-reports/fulltext/S2211-1247(18)31503-1?_returnURL=https%3A%2F%2Flinkinghub.elsevier.com%2Fretrieve%2Fpii%2FS2211124718315031%3Fshowall%3Dtrue
This study suggests two things which may be relevant to autism and several interventions discussed at length on this blog. First, that high-salt intake may be counterproductive to diet induced ketosis as salt inhibits the production of beta-hydroxybutyrate which also happens to lower blood pressure, and secondly that a ketogenic diet could potentially improve autism symptoms by reducing blood pressure even more so than benefits from the ketones themselves (this is just personal speculation).
There is some other interesting speculation in the discussion section as well, but the takeaway I get with respect to autism is that electrolyte issues may be overlooked in autism, especially as they relate to blood pressure issues which can cause secondary problems with blood pressure in the brain.
One other interesting idea I had in the last week was about the use of a device called a Q-Collar:
http://q30innovations.com/q-collar/
in youth sports which involve a lot of concussive impacts (such as heading a ball in girls soccer) and its mechanism of action which is to apply pressure to the jugular vein which increases intracranial pressure, thereby reducing the amount of movement of the brain in the skull upon being hit by repeated concussive impacts. Even though this device is intended to be used short-term for sports purposes, I would think that if a normal person wore this device for a significant time (such as a week), you could potentially get small but increased autistic symptoms in a normal person (again just my speculation) due to the chronic intracranial pressure. Now, do I believe high intracranial pressure causes autism? Of course not, but there seems to be a lot of correlating evidence suggesting it could be a big contributor to exacerbating symptoms as many of the interventions that seem to help, also coincidentally reduce peripheral blood pressure which tends to also reduce intracranial pressure as well.
Tyler, was that you who looked at Fisetin a while ago? Why? I have started a short trial here and thought there was very little on the subject to read.
ReplyDelete/Ling
The main thing about Fisetin you have to be aware of is that it is very poorly absorbed. In the senolytic studies, it was always injected. Some of it does make it into the blood stream, but the amount is in the single digit percent range. Also, I don't know if anyone has looked at the idea of prematurely senescent cells in autism before.
DeleteI have been using atorvastatin with my daughter (Asperger, just turned 8 years old) for over a year now in addition to other supplements (see below) and I think we are unfortunately nearing a dead end. I say it is unfortunate because it is working like magic for making her perfectly “normal”.
ReplyDeleteDosage has been an issue from the start, I initially used a dosage of about 2mg a day but rapidly reduced it to about 0.7mg a day over the course of a few weeks because of negative side effects, mostly anger (she told me once “I just want to punch something”). However, at the 10 weeks mark she started having cough for no apparent reason, sometime enough to make her worried. I suspected atorvastatin and found some related information (see for instance https://www.pharmaco-vigilance.eu/content/statin-treatment-and-onset-cough-without-pulmonary-involvement ). Stopping Atorvastatin stopped her coughing.
I was however reluctant to give it up completely. I restarted again after a week at 1/4 of the previous dosage and over the course of a few months eventually settled to around 0.16mg to 0.2mg a day. There was another coughing episode at higher dosage but it quickly resolved once lowered. This dosage is quite low and I had to convince myself many times that it really makes a difference, and it does as her behavior turns for the worse at lower dosage.
It was not the end of the story however. At some point I increased her magnesium (lactate dihydrate) from 80mg to 120mg a day and it resulted in increased anger after a few days, again…. Reducing atorvastatin from 0.2mg to 0.112mg a day returned her to normal. That was several months ago. Many times I reduced dosage and the positive effects were mostly gone at 0.102mg. I find it interesting that there is such a narrow range between this medication working (0.112mg) and not working (0.102mg) and that it is affected by magnesium. My rational for now is that magnesium makes her gut/brain barriers less “leaky”, reducing inflammation which in turns reduces the amount of atorvastatin needed. The excess somehow result in anger and excessive impulsiveness (being impolite), I think I read some studies on that but I can't quite remember...
I maintained that dosage for a few months but she now developed a runny nose with lots of sniffles (followed by a corresponding cough) that are getting unacceptable. Reducing atorvastatin to .102mg seems to lower the sniffles/cough but then her behavior deteriorates significantly. So is this a dead end? I am not sure other statins would help but I will probably try because the benefits are just too important in her case.
Atorvastatin makes her want to do stuff, crafts, play with her stuffies, built them houses and clothing… instead of wanting to watch TV all the time. It makes her less obsessive in general and less inclined to request “bad” food, less shy, more spontaneous, impulsive, not afraid to talk loudly in public, more articulate when she talks, more grown-up, it also eliminates her “funny voice”, a cue for me that she is not doing well…, it reduces her restlessness, makes her more attentive, etc.. On several occasions, after an increase, there was spontaneous showing of emotions, hugs and a few times complete meltdown over trivial problems (rapid increase will do that) but it passes quickly
Christian
Current supplements for 55lbs girl, after 3 years of trials and errors...
Values are total daily dosage divided in the day
m: morning
e: evening
Vitamin C 44mg (m+e)
Vitamin D 600IU (m)
B1 8mg (m)
B2 8mg (m)
B6 19mg (m)
Folinic acid 300mcg (m)
B12 (methylcobalamin) 550mcg (m+e)
B5 12mg (m)
Magnesium (lactate dihydrate) 130mg (m+e)
Zinc (gluconate) 12mg (m)
Molybdenum 75mcg (m)
Potassium (chloride)678mg (m+e)
MSM 320mg (m+e)
Choline (L-Bitartrate) 264mg (m+e)
NAC 130mg (m+e)
Taurine 860mg (m+e)
Tryptophan 60mg (e)
5-HTP 7mg (e)
Bumetanide 0.41mg (0.31mg m ,0.1mg e)
Ketitophen 1.4mg (m+e)
Atorvastatin .112mg (m+e)
Palmitoylethanolamide 660mg (m+e)
Clostridium Butyricum Strong 2 tablets (m+e)
Broccoli sprout powder 620mg (m)
Christian, thanks for your very comprehensive update.
DeleteJust to tie-up some loose ends in my previous comment I would like to mention that a few weeks after it was posted, her sniffles and cough cleared-up magically one day so that we can still use atorvastatin, which is a relief. One possible explanation for her sniffles and cough might be related to Herpangina which she suffered from a few months earlier.
DeleteWe still needed to adjust bumetanide/atorvastatin/magnesium after that however (I made another comment somewhere in this blog on that suject) but it is still one of the most important supplements for her.
Note that we have now eliminated tryptophan and 5-HTP, it was on trial at the time to help her fall asleep but as I have experienced many times before, increasing serotonin for her mostly result in bad mood. Her recent difficulties falling asleep were mostly due to too much magnesium and normal age related development.
Christian
My daughter is now 13 and a half and I thought reporting back might be of some use. I continued with the supplement regimen listed above until a few months after her 9th birthday, when I believe she started puberty. I could see she was deteriorating, getting more angry, oppositional, easily distracted, snapping fingers, vocal stimming, etc.
DeleteThis phase was happening as she went through an appendectomy and a few months later developed increased generalized anxiety and panic attacks coupled with restless legs syndrome and later, some migraines. So not a good phase but completely stopping her supplements for a while allowed me to start from scratch and see if they still made a difference. They did indeed. After several weeks/months without anything, she was not in a good place, she even made secret plans to leave the house...
To my surprise, after restarting supplements that were previously making her better, I noticed that they were now making her worse (e.g. bumetanide and choline) while others were now making her better (e.g. 5-HTP, L-tryptophan). So my theory is that starting with puberty, she slowly shifted from a dopamine deficit to a serotonin deficit. Other problems persisted with respect to immune problems, mainly food intolerance which now mostly show as rosacea instead of behavior. We reduced ketotifen for a few years to a minimum but are now exploring increasing it again to reduce that problem.
I am still puzzled as to how atorvastatin still makes a big difference in her behavior, even with the minute amount I am now using compared to before her puberty, 0.548ug (yes, only 548ng) per day. Noticing how sensitive she it to it, I powder the pills and dilute/cut it with corn starch in order to get a more accurate and constant dosage every day.
A change of 1 part in 138 (I give her 138mg of the diluted powder every day) will result in noticeable behavior change. Below 138, she will start snapping fingers and vocalizing more often, be less happy, less playful, more somber, wears a tuque in the house. At the right level, she is happier, more playful with imaginary characters, use a more articulate language. When I give her a bit more than 138, symptoms are not always obvious, she is just generally more emotional for little things, less happy. The most obvious sign that it was too high is that once reduced, she immediately feels happier, start doing some cleaning, makes her own breakfast, start exercising, etc. I always wondered if Atorvastatin makes her act more like a neurotypical child at the right dosage while without it she acts more like a stereotypical teenager...I also noticed that if 5-HTP is increased, atorvastatin must be reduced.
This is what I am using now:
Vitamin C 33mg (m)
Vitamin D 1500IU (m)
B1 5.3mg (m)
B2 14.9mg (m)
B6 26.7mg (m)
MSM 320mg (m+e)
Tryptophan 176mg (e)
5-HTP 35mg (m) 65mg (e)
Ketitofen 0.22mg (m+e)
Atorvastatin 548ng (m)
I don't use the other supplements anymore either because the didn't produce any significant improvement, made her marginally worse or may have contributed to her restless legs syndrome/migraine episode.
One thing that never changed throughout the years except for a very shortly lived couple of times, she has lots of difficulties with social situations and interactions.
Christian
Hi Christian,
DeleteCould you please elaborate on the procedure of achieving such a small dose of atorvastatin? I'm wondering what kind of syringe you are using to draw such a tiny (I guess) amount.
I crush the pills to a fine powder using a mortar and pestle, add corn starch, put everything in a Ziploc bag and mix thoroughly for a few minutes. I then sift the result in a fine sieve and remix, several times. The point is to make sure to disperse the pill powder uniformly and break down all clumps. I measure daily dosage with a small milligram scale, in a wind free area...
DeleteMy current mixture is 1/16384 but I didn't prepare it directly
since it is kind of difficult to be accurate, even with a milligram scale. Instead, I gradually increased the dilution in iterative batches. I started at 1/4, then, using that powder, diluted it to 1/16, then to 1/64, etc to finally end up to 1/16384.
The pills I am using are 40mg Atorvastatin and each one weighs 615mg. To prepare the 1/4 mixture, I would mix the powder from 4 pills (4*615mg = 2460mg) to 3 times as much corn starch, 7380mg.
To prepare the 1/16 powder just combine 1 part of the 1/4 powder to 15 part of corn starch, mix and sieve many times.
Note that the exact dosage for my daughter changed drastically at puberty and even before that when other supplements were changed so starting at that low level might not do anything for someone else.
Christian
Sorry, it should have read:
Delete"To prepare the 1/64 powder just combine 1 part of the 1/4 powder to 15 part of corn starch, mix and sieve many times."
Thanks for sharing Christian!
Deletehi Peter
ReplyDeleteNow that we know that my son is a responder to bumetanide we started Atorvastatin 2 days ago. Gave 5 mg , and didn't see any immediate change, but the babysitter mentioned that he was less hyper today ( he usually jumps around on his trampoline a lot, runs around constantly all day. Could Statins have an effect on hyperactivity ?
( btw I paused with the ponstan at the moment was not sure if I saw any change while he was on it.)
Thanks Anji
Anji, yes I think Atorvastatin could affect hyperactivity. I suggest you continue your trial and see if there are other benefits and later on make a pause and see if hyperactivity comes back.
DeleteI first tried Ponstan 5 years ago and really did not notice an effect. Since we more recently started it again to treat sound sensitivity we do see broader effects, notably with more speech. It also means we really do not seem to need NAC any more.
Guy, how old your kid and how much the dose of bumetanid you used ?
DeleteHi Peter,
ReplyDeleteThought this was interesting turning macrophage m1 into m2.
https://www.mdpi.com/2673-5601/2/2/21
https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT04689282?cond=Autism&cntry=RU&draw=2&rank=5
-Stephen
Interesting, Stephen.
DeleteI am a big fan of statins.
The Russian trial looks pretty cutting edge and intranasal is a clever delivery method, if it works.
Maybe in one form of Autism the brain is stuck in chronic inflammation negative feedback cycle.
Deletehttps://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fimmu.2022.946832/full
-Stephen
Taurine?
DeleteOn the Potential Therapeutic Roles of Taurine in Autism ... https://www.mdpi.com/2571-6980/4/1/1/pdf
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11416987/
DeleteIntranasal bumetanide.
guy, many drug good for microglia. taurine, betaine, statin, PEA, xeton, clemastine, ibuprofen, piogliatazone, metformin, carnitine, oxitidan like NAC, ALA, Astanxathin... the problem is what drug for your kid. no one know. best maybe one oxitidan like ALA (NAC, Astaxathin...) combine with stantin (PEA, metformin...) and Bumetanid and PDE inhibit like Roflumilast (Pentoxifil). 4 for all
DeleteYes, I've become quite fascinated with Russian and Chinese medicine recently. There is a whole world of drugs I have never known.
ReplyDeletehttps://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/36768384/
-Stephen
Hi Peter, we started 3.3mg of Atorvastatin, above i read about inhibiting insulin, i am bit worried, can it permanently reduce insulin production. How long we should use Atorvastatin. Thanks Sudhakar.
ReplyDeleteOnly use an intervention if you see a clear benefit. All drugs and supplements can cause negative effects. Statins have numerous beneficial effects, but do marginally increase blood sugar. This can be offset by the blood sugar lowering effects of one of the other therapies used, like NAC, ALA, cinnamon, l. Reuteri etc.
DeleteThank you so much for the clarification. We saw after 4 hrs of using
ReplyDeleteatorvastatin increased urination and gases. But we saw more alertness and increased responsiveness.
Peter, please read and advise. Do you think statins can help increase nrf1? Thanks!
ReplyDeleteNRF1 Is an ER Membrane Sensor that Is Central to Cholesterol Homeostasis: Cell
https://www.cell.com/cell/fulltext/S0092-8674(17)31187-X?_returnURL=https%3A%2F%2Flinkinghub.elsevier.com%2Fretrieve%2Fpii%2FS009286741731187X%3Fshowall%3Dtrue
Stephen
Stephen, it looks statins definitely increase NRF2 and might indirectly increase NRF1.
DeleteAn alternative might be pioglitazone.
By activating PPAR-gamma, pioglitazone indirectly increases the expression of NRF1
Cool, thanks!
Delete