Today’s post is all about what to expect in the future; it covers a detailed look at 2 different studies that I think are best considered in a single post.
Forewarned is forearmed.
How high to set the bar?
In a recent post I highlighted the need for long term (longitudinal) studies showing what happened to people diagnosed with autism back in the 1990s in California and New York, when an autism diagnosis was much more meaningful and yet early intervention was already available. We could then see what the outcome was 20 years after diagnosis and this might help parents decide their own autism strategies for today.
I was encouraged to subsequently come across today’s study from France that traces the progress made over 15 years by a group diagnosed with autism. I also include my take on a popular recent study that showed what “Optimal Outcome” looks like in American autism, but that looks just over a 4 year period.
Don’t raise your hopes.
All this leads to the practical question of how far to raise the bar? What should parents expect at diagnosis? What should clinicians be telling parents? and what kind of value is being delivered by hundreds of millions of dollars spent on early intervention and special schooling by each of many municipal authorities all over world. Is their spending delivering its potential return? Today's post suggests not.
Today we come across 2 autism rating scales. The Childhood Autism Rating Scale (CARS) is my long-time favourite; in this scale above 30 means autistic and if you get above 36.5 it is severe autism. If you come at 29 you have some features of autism but not enough to be diagnosed with even mild autism.
The Vineland Scale is a very scientific way to measure adaptive behaviour (life skills). These are really the most important skills you need to live semi-independently and have some kind of job.
The Vineland results really reflect what you are taught at school/home, rather than how “autistic” you are. Vineland is not a measurement of IQ. You can be a functional adult who is still well and truly autistic and have had a CARS score of above 30 from diagnosis at 3 years old all the way to 18 years old.
If you are a genuine Aspie reading this, I very much doubt your CARS score was above 30 when you left high school. This is why Asperger’s has to be considered as a separate category.
The French Study
The way autism was treated in the 1990s and early 2000s in big cities in California was very different to how it was, and is, treated in France. In France hospitals and psychotherapy played a major role, whereas in the US it was and remains all about ABA early intervention.
The outcomes in France for the top 20% are not stellar, but they are actually quite OK, they end up at 20 years old with the adaptive life skills of a 13 year old. The results for the remaining 80% in the lower group show adaptive behaviour / living skills of a 2-3 years old at the age of 20. The percentage with severe ID/MR (IQ less than 70) increased from 49% to 78.2% at the age of 20. In effect virtually the entire lower group, that makes up 80% of the study participants, leave school with mental retardation / intellectual disability. That is a lot. I did highlight in earlier posts that people with severe autism usually see their IQ fall as they get older, because IQ tests gets harder as you get older and people with severe autism acquire skills more slowly than their typical peers, so they inevitably fall further behind.
The good news was that 5.4% of the cohort lost their autism diagnosis by age 20 and all without any ABA. Time and time again we see that some people age out of their autism.
Not surprisingly, the higher your IQ and verbal skills at diagnosis the better your outcome will be. The most dramatic progress occurs before the age of 8. This we already knew and it is attributed to the brain being more plastic in early childhood, allowing a greater degree of self-repair.
The average CARS total score of the entire group was 35.7 on diagnosis. On CARS autism scale 30 is the threshold for an autism diagnosis. Mild to moderate autism is 30 to 36.5.
You cannot make the case that this group performed poorly because they were all profoundly autistic, some were, but that was balanced by some with mild autism. As a group they were likely more severe than a group diagnosed with autism aged 3 in California in 2019.
By diagnosing at 2 years old and sometimes even younger, there will be a sub-group included whose very plastic brains were on track to self-repair, so that they would never have been diagnosed with autism in most countries, which wait till 3, 4 or even 5 years old to make a diagnosis.
Another key point here is that very likely a large proportion of 2019 autism diagnoses in the United States would correspond to a CARS score less than 30, but nobody bothered to measure it. As Dr Siegel suggests, their parents are now incentivized to want a diagnosis. It is like a quirky badge of honour, with benefits.
There is limited data on long-term outcome of ASD with co-occurring intellectual disabilities (ID) and challenging behaviours in France. The EpiTED period cohort is a 15 years longitudinal study of the developmental trajectories of 281 children initially recruited at mean age of 5 years. Two contrasted developmental trajectories were identified. Low cognitive level, absence of language, and higher ASD scores at baseline were predictive of low growth at follow-up. As adults the participants were predisposed to persistent co-occurring challenging behaviours as well as underlying ID impacting their ability to function independently. The results underscore the need for development of services and supports for adults with ASD in France who may also have already lacked access to adequate interventions and support services.
The inclusion criteria in the EpiTED cohort were: (a) index child age below 7 years; (b) parental informed consent; (c) diagnosis of childhood autism, atypical autism, or Asperger Syndrome according to ICD-10 criteria (atypical autism corresponded to at least two domains of impairment according to ICD-10 criteria) (World Health Organization 1993) (autism will be subsequently referred to as ASD unless specifically signifying subtype). All diagnoses were validated by two independent, experienced child and adolescent psychiatrists among the research staff (including AB), on the basis of medical records, as well as videotaped observations during enrolment. Subjects for whom a consensual diagnosis could not be obtained or those for whom the date of appearance of ICD-10 autism symptoms emerged after 3 years were not enrolled. Between 1997 and 1999, among 362 eligible children, 281 with ASD (77%) aged between 3 and 7 years fulfilled the research inclusion criteria (T1); 62 children were excluded as they did not meet research inclusion criteria; 19 children (families) had moved away prior to enrolment and were also excluded.
The index children were followed prospectively over 15 years with four assessment points: ages 5 (T1), 8 (T2), 15 (T3), and 20 (T4) years (see flow chart, Fig. 1). At T2, from 2000 to 2002, 219 of children were reassessed; at T3, from 2007 to 2009, 152 adolescents were reassessed; and at T4, from 2012 to 2015, 106 young adult subjects were reassessed.
The primary outcome measures of the study were the standard scores in the three domains of the vineland adaptive behavior scale (VAB-S) (Sparrow et al. 1984). This scale is widely used to assess adaptive skills in different areas (daily living, communication, socialization and motor skills) in individuals from birth to adulthood including those affected by intellectual disabilities or ASD. VABS scores recorded at each of the follow-up times were used to identify developmental trajectories in communication, socialization, and daily living skills
ASD symptom severity was assessed using the total score of the childhood autism rating scale (CARS) (Eric Schopler et al. 2002), with scoring based on a 20 min and standardized video clip of the child interacting with an adult.
The diagnosis of ASD was stable (see Table 3): 94 (88.7%) subjects received a diagnosis of childhood autism and 12 subjects a diagnosis of atypical autism at T1; at 15 years follow up (T4), 82.6% of the cohort remained above the ADOS ASD threshold; 5.4% of the cohort lowered their ADOS scores under the ASD threshold; 12% of the cohort became “atypical autism”. Whereas the ASD diagnosis was remarkably stable between T1 and T2 follow up stages, most diagnostic changes occurred between T2 and T3. The ratio of participants without ID ranged between 7.5 and 22.5 according to measurement steps. Among the subjects with childhood autism, 59.6% were non-verbal at T1, with 39% remaining non-verbal at T4. With respect to comorbid ID, most changes occurred between 4 and 8 years of age. The proportion of children with either word/sentence language at T4 was 61%. The ratio of combined moderate and severe ID (IQ 20–25 to 50–55) measured by “best estimate” assessment of intellectual functioning was stable across time (around 80%), but the ratio of moderate ID (IQ 35–55 to 50–55) decreased from 27 to 5%, while that of severe ID (20–25 to 35–40) increased from 49 to 78.2% between T1 and T4.
Vineland Scale
Here below is an example tracking the adaptive development of a child with a disability.
If the child progressed 100% as a typical child in all three domains (communication, daily living skills and socialization) he/she would follow the sold black line at 45 degrees. If the child falls below expected level, then the line will track below the straight line at 45 degrees.
In the French data, the top 20% group reached the level of about 150 months of age by 20 years old. The Low growth group, which comprised almost 80% of the sample, reached the functional age of 24 months by the age of 20.
Fig. 2 Trajectories of adaptive level through adulthood among 94 participants of the EpiTED Cohort diagnosed as children. The figure shows the mean adaptive scores (CI 95%) over time for participants assigned to the two trajectory groups: _______Low growth group; ……………… lower CI 95%; - - - - - - - - upper CI 95%
The EpiTED is a unique prospective cohort of children with well-characterized ASD referred to five Departments in France. At the time of the cohort’s inception, the participating centers were the only public sites diagnosing and treating preschool children with ASD in the country. Although the cohort exhibited considerable rate of co-occurring ID, it must be noted that 20 years ago early diagnosis of high functioning children with ASD and interventions for them were not the norm in France. Therefore, children with ASD with more severe co-occurring levels of ID, communication, and adaptive impairments, so identified, were more likely to be referred to the study collaborating sites.
Among the 106 study participants at the four collection time points, diagnostic stability was dominant, but not constant, and associated with a general improvement of ASD characteristics. However, the emerging trend in intellectual abilities, as measured by the best estimate procedure, was more unstable, with an increase of severe ID from 49 to 78.2%. This could result either from an actual decline of intellectual abilities, potentially and consequentially due to minimal exposure to educational interventions and learning opportunities (many children with ASD were historically excluded from mainstream education lacking access to support services), or alternatively as a result of lower performance scores on identical measures with advancing age, or both. While an improvement in adaptive skills measured by the VABS was the rule for the entire group, two contrasted developmental trajectories in adaptive functioning were identified. The majority of participants (around 80%) followed a low-growth developmental trajectory, with the remainder following a high-growth trajectory. Again, for majority of participants, a lower cognitive level, absence of functional speech, and increased CARS scores at T1 predicted a low-growth trajectory in communication, socialization, and daily living skills. Other studies have reported a similar relationship with IQ, non-verbal mental age, ASD severity and speech (Bal et al. 2015; Smith et al. 2012; Szatmari et al. 2015). Nonetheless, in the absence of studies on long-term effect of intervention, one cannot decide if this poor outcome is intrinsic to a fraction of the ASD population, or an effect of absence of interventions or limited exposure to learning opportunities. As regards co-occurring challenging behaviors, our results suggest that behavioral problems in children with ASD persist in early adulthood and are related to core symptom severity, levels of cognitive and language impairments, as well as medical comorbidities. The results also affirm that ASD symptom severity among adult subjects was a significant predictor of co-occurrence of challenging behaviors (Baghdadli et al. 2003, 2008). Another significant predictor was the presence of GI disorders. This is consistent with reports of a high correlation between the presence of pain and the frequency and severity of stereotypies (Courtemanche et al. 2016), as well as challenging behaviors in general (Chaidez et al. 2014). Nonetheless, these combined variables only explained at most 30% of the developmental variance observed in the study sample. Invariably, this means that other factors, not identified here, might explain the presence of challenging behaviors in adults with ASD. Additional research is needed to examine other influences, with particular relevance for the services and interventions in the community provided. It is of interest that for children with ASD, the main risk factors for self-injurious behaviour (SIB) were ASD symptom severity and cognitive level (Baghdadli et al. 2003, 2008). In the present study, the symptom severity remained a significant risk factor, but language skills instead of cognitive level predicted the presence of SIB. One possible explanation for this might be that SIB at adulthood may reflect a relationship with communicative deficits. This finding emphasizes the crucial role of communicative abilities and the need for targeted behavioural interventions for children with ASD aiming at developing better communication in order to prevent as well as manage subsequent challenging behaviours. The impact of having a child with ASD on parental QoL was strong with several implications not only on daily life but also on parental emotional well-being, lasting through adolescence through young adulthood. The results did not affirm that raising a child with ASD often leads to the breaking up of the parental relationship, as has been commonly believed. Overall, parental QoL at early adulthood appears to be mainly predicted by the presence of co-occurring challenging behaviours, whereas at adolescence parental QoL was also predicted by the children’s adaptive level, namely in communication and daily living skills. Again, the impact of co-occurrence of challenging behaviours on family life argues for the importance of implementing specific interventions targeting them at a younger age. In a functional behavioural assessment perspective (O’neill and Jones 1997), challenging behaviours are described as a way to obtain reinforcement or escape a negative experience, which is most of the time related to poor communication. From our perspective, the best way to prevent subsequent development of adverse behaviours is to propose specific treatment aiming at the development of communicative abilities in the very early years. It is also crucial to provide parental training and disability support guidance as parental involvement and knowledge is key predictive factor of parental satisfaction and performance (Renty and Roeyers 2006). We can hypothesize that the participants of the EpiTED cohort had limited access to this type of interventions, as the educational approaches have considerably changed since the children were included in this follow-up study 20 years ago (Happé and Charlton 2012). Finally, the EpiTED as a “period” cohort reflects the ASD diagnostic practices in France in the mid-1990s and in the ensuing two decades. High-functioning verbal individuals were frequently not given ASD diagnoses, due to the dominant use of alternative diagnoses in the French classification of mental health disorders (Classification Française des Troubles Mentaux de l’Enfant et de l’Adolescent, CFTMEA), particularly for verbal subjects, and the dominant influence of psychoanalysis. An important limitation of the EpiTED cohort therefore is that the prevalence of co-occurring challenging behaviours, ID, as well as associate medical comorbidity, including epilepsy cannot be representative of a contemporary profile of children with ASD that will be currently recruited from child and adolescent psychiatry services and ASD evaluation clinics in public centers. Nonetheless, the EpiTED cohort provides a distinctive portrait of French children with official diagnosis of ASD enrolled in public centers and how they fared over a 20-years follow-up as they became young adults. While there was improvement in their adaptive skills, the substantial social and communication difficulties among the children in the cohort tended to persist in adulthood reflecting the salient effects of non-specific, delayed or Journal of Autism and Developmental Disorders 1 3 absent interventions. As adults the subjects in the EpiTED cohort were noted to be predisposed to persistent challenging behaviours impacting their ability to be independent and have acceptable QoL. As the Government of France is increasingly recognizing the widespread shortcomings in services and supports for children with ASD and their families, the current EpiTED analyses underscore the need for service provision for adults with ASD as an urgent policy priority. This is a unique and relevant finding not only for researchers and clinicians but for policy makers in planning for the next National Autism Plan.
Conclusion on the French Study
This is French data that I think can be best considered as tracking outcome from DSM3-like autism. So it is Strictly Defined Autism (SDA), not the much broader 2019 type of American autism.
Based on my earlier review of the epidemiology of autism I found it roughly splits into 0.3% of all kids have Strictly Defined Autism (SDA), 0.3% have true Asperger’s (genuine little professors) and 0.4% have something in between. That takes us to 1% prevalence. In my opinion today’s figures of even greater than 2% prevalence include many people will very mild symptoms of ASD, so a likely CARS score of 25 to 29. Beyond 1% is likely over-diagnosis, diagnosing for dollars, self-diagnosis, educational autism (school diagnosed), private psychologist diagnosis or whatever you choose to call it.
The Big Question
Would a 15 year longitudinal study in California (the home of ABA) look any better? In the next study at age 7 even the optimal outcome group did not look in any way “recovered”. Perhaps by 20 years old things would look much better.
I would love to know and I keep an open mind.
Is French Autism therapy so much worse than in most developed countries? Different, yes; but is the result at age 20 any better in Germany, Italy, the United Kingdom or the United States? How about some facts?
Now to the study on Optimal Outcome in US Autism
The sad news is that the US study only looks at outcomes of those with early diagnosis up to the age of about 7. The French study looked at all the way up to 20 years old.
Given those limitations of the US study, it does at least show us what the star performers look like at age 7. These are the ones that technically lost their autism diagnosis, but as you will read are still far from typical kids at the age of 7.
The study concerns the outcome for children diagnosed with DSMIV autism when then were 2.6 years old and then entered an early intervention program. Four years later about 9% no longer met the criteria for an autism diagnosis.
This loss of diagnosis is what we now seem to call “optimal outcome”. Today we get to see what optimal outcome means for those 9%, which accounts for the 38 children in the study. So did 9% essentially “recover”? Not really.
In research papers I usually skip to the data and what I saw was that of the 38 kids with “optimal outcome” only 10 were in mainstream school, without needing an assistant; that is what I would see as “recovery”. Those 10 kids are about 2% of all the 569 kids with an initial autism diagnosis.
Only 1% were free of any psychiatric diagnosis (ADHD, anxiety, OCD, MR/ID etc). So, even optimal outcome does not look such a great place to be.
I wonder how many will be in mainstream school, without an assistant, when they are 16? I think it will be more than 2%, I certainly hope so. I was expecting at least 10% would be mainstreamed without an assistant before they turned 7 years old.
Inner city New York is doing well diagnosing children so young and putting them into their early intervention program, but their results four years later look nothing like Lovaas suggested.
I am really surprised that more people did not lose their diagnosis. This sample is from New York where you might expect autism to be over-diagnosed and to have the best early intervention offerings.
Recall in the old post on autism with tics (Tourette’s type autism) that 6% of kids lost their diagnosis without any intervention.
If at 2 years old CARS is above 30 you have autism, if at 6 years old it has fallen below 30, you have lost your diagnosis and achieved “optimal outcome”.
A chart review was performed of 38 children diagnosed with autism spectrum disorder (ASD) by 3 years of age at an inner-city developmental program who subsequently experienced resolution of ASD symptomatology and no longer met diagnostic criteria for ASD at follow-up an average of 4 years later.
Demographic, developmental/cognitive data, Childhood Autism Rating Scale, and Autism Diagnostic Observation Schedule data as available were reviewed from the initial diagnostic evaluation and at the time of follow-up. Services received by the children between the time of diagnosis and follow-up, educational setting at the time of follow-up, and emotional/behavioral and learning diagnoses made by the multidisciplinary team at follow-up were reviewed. The findings indicate that residual emotional/behavioral and learning problems were present at follow-up in the vast majority of children in this group and that the majority continued to require educational support.
Demographic, developmental/cognitive data, Childhood Autism Rating Scale, and Autism Diagnostic Observation Schedule data as available were reviewed from the initial diagnostic evaluation and at the time of follow-up. Services received by the children between the time of diagnosis and follow-up, educational setting at the time of follow-up, and emotional/behavioral and learning diagnoses made by the multidisciplinary team at follow-up were reviewed. The findings indicate that residual emotional/behavioral and learning problems were present at follow-up in the vast majority of children in this group and that the majority continued to require educational support.
Although autism spectrum disorder (ASD) has generally been considered a lifelong condition, it has been acknowledged for more than 40 years that some individuals with an early diagnosis of ASD do not meet criteria for the diagnosis at a later age. Lovaas used the term recovery to characterize the outcome of this group of children who received intensive behavioral intervention and later could be educationally mainstreamed and had average Intelligence Quotient (IQ). The term optimal outcome was coined by Fein to characterize a group of 34 individuals with early ASD whose later social functioning could not be distinguished from typical controls and who appeared to be cured of ASD. Follow-up studies have spoken of varying degrees of learning or emotional vulnerability that continue in the “positive outcome” populations, including attention problems and language problems. More recently, a long-term follow-up study of 198 children diagnosed with ASD at ages 2 to 4.5 years found that 17 children no longer met the criteria for ASD at the 2-year follow-up. Later, when the children were about 10 years of age, parents were interviewed by phone regarding the children’s school age needs. Based on parent report, all 17 children continued to have some type of ongoing developmental and/or neuropsychiatric challenge.
The goals of the current study were to further characterize the residual learning, cognitive, and emotional/behavioral diagnoses as well as the range of educational supports required at school age in a group of children with a history of an early diagnosis of ASD that resolved.
Demographics The 38 subjects of this study represented 7% of the 569 children receiving an early diagnosis at the center in a 10-year period. (In order to provide a real denominator for calculating the percentage of children no longer meeting criteria for ASD at follow-up, we need to know the number of children of the 569 who actually came for follow-up. Unfortunately, a change in our program’s clinical affiliation since the original cohort was studied with resultant changes in the charting system does not allow us to establish the exact number of the 569 children who came for follow-up. Our best estimate of the follow-up rate is on the basis of a prior study involving a subset of 108 children from this group of 569 who were diagnosed by 24 months. The follow-up rate for that group was 71%. Utilizing the 71% follow-up rate, the 38 children no longer meeting criteria for ASD would represent 9.4% of the sample.) The mean age of the sample was 2.6 + 0.9 years of age at initial diagnosis and 6.4 + 2.8 years at follow-up. The sample was 80% male with a diverse demographic representative of the community served: 36% self-identifying as Caucasian, 44% Hispanic, and 10% African American. Forty-six percent of the sample had Medicaid, and 42% were bilingual (Spanish and English). Eighty percent of the children received Early Intervention services (most commonly weekly special instruction for 1 hour per week and twice-weekly speech and occupational therapies) and 39% had received Applied Behavioral Analysis.
The above chart shows that the CARS evaluation of autism severity fell below the cut-off point of 30 and generally there was an increase in IQ of about 10. So the kids became less autistic and a bit smarter. Severe autism starts at a CARS score of 36.5, you can see that these kids were only mild to moderate autistic at the time of their initial diagnosis.
One child went from CARS of 38 to CARS of 27. His parents should be very happy. He went from very serious autism to trivial autism.
Follow-up Evaluation Results
At follow-up, it was the clinical impression of the multidisciplinary team using DSM IV that none of the participants continued to meet criteria for an ASD diagnosis. Mean Childhood Autism Rating Scale score at follow-up for the group was 25+ 4, with 30 being the cutoff for ASD (Table 1). On the Autism Diagnostic Observation Schedule (available in 23 of the 38), all available scores were in the non-autistic range. However, other diagnoses were present (Table 2). Only 8% (n ¼ 3) of the children warranted no diagnosis other than having had a history ofASD. Sixty-eightpercent (n¼26) had language/ learning disabilities, 49% (n ¼ 19) of the children were diagnosed with externalizing behavior problems (attention-deficit hyperactivity disorder [ADHD], oppositional defiant disorder, disruptive behavior disorder), 24% (n¼9) were diagnosed with internalizing problems (mood disorder, anxiety disorder, obsessive compulsive disorder [OCD], selective mutism), and 5% (n ¼2) were given a significant mental health diagnosis (psychotic disorder not otherwise specified). Sixty percent (n ¼ 23) of the children received 2 diagnoses, with the most common combination being language/learning disability and ADHD. Follow-up cognitive testing, available in 33 of the 38 participants (Table 1), revealed that none of the children functioned in the range of intellectual disability, including those who previously tested as delayed on the Bayley. The average Full Scale IQ of the sample at follow-up was 93+14; 6% (n ¼ 2) scored in the borderline category; 27% (n ¼ 9) in the low average range; and 67% (n ¼ 22) in the average range (Table 1). The mean Verbal IQ of the sample at follow-up was 92+14 and mean Nonverbal IQ was 95+12 (Figure 1).
Follow-Up Educational/Academic Setting
Information regarding academic setting at follow-up was available for 34 of the 38 children: 26% of the children (n ¼ 10) were in a mainstream class, 13% (n¼5) were in a mainstream class with assistant teacher support, 29% (n ¼ 11) were in an integrated co-teaching (ICT) or collaborative team teaching (CTT) class/or received resource room, and 21% (n ¼ 8) were in a self-contained classroom (Table 2).
Discussion
A given for this study is that there is a subset of children with an early ASD diagnosis who show a categorical improvement in their original social communicative impairment, such that they no longer manifest a social communicative impairment impacting on their functioning at some later point. Such a phenomenon has been repeatedly documented for a small group of children with ASD. Less clear has been whether children with this history continue to experience residual learning and emotional/behavioral problems. The findings of this small sample suggest that at least in the early elementary years, such residual problems are very common for this group. In this sample, although the loss of the ASD diagnosis was associated with gains in cognition, the vast majority of these children who experienced resolution of ASD continued to manifest symptoms of other emotional/behavioral and/or learning diagnoses (92%) and continued to require educational supports (74%).
Though it has been reported in multiple studies that a small subset of children with early ASD improve in terms of their social functioning and no longer warrant a diagnosis of autism,11 this persistent finding continues to beg severalquestions: Was autism overcalled in these children to begin with? Are some children better able to respond to intervention? Does the specific intervention the child receives contribute to outcome? All are possible. Based on our experience, our sense is that the symptoms evolve—in some children in response to intervention, in others due to their individual developmental trajectories. And who is most likely to evolve in this positive direction? Those with the mildest symptoms to begin with. This study as well as previous studies all support that it is the children with milder autistic symptoms who are most likely to follow this pattern of resolution of autistic symptoms. The milder forms of autism likely serve as a holding area. There, children await the emergence of the signs and symptoms of a more specific developmental or emotional-behavioral condition—whether that is language/learning disability or emotional-behavioral disorders that require more language, cognition, and increased behavioral expectations in order to be specifically identified and diagnosed. A 2-year-old simply does not have sufficient language or cognition to manifest the signs of schizophrenia, or to give voice to anxiety
Conclusions on the US and French Studies
I think that clinicians and therapists can too easily take cover behind the accepted mantra that each case of autism is unique, to justify why little Charlie did not make the hoped for miraculous “recovery” or achieve what Lovaas claimed as the outcome for 50% of such kids.
In the wider world there is a concept of benchmarking performance, so you can see how your product or service compares.
Whoever is paying all these hundreds of millions of dollars in early intervention should demand proof of their effect. I myself do not see any proof. The results overall look pretty terrible. Time to start treating severe autism medically?
By studying the trajectories of just a thousand kids from diagnosis to adulthood, you could reliably say what is typical and what you might expect in the upper and lower quartiles. Then you could look at the effect of different types of therapy and schooling. Nobody has done this, clearly too much bother and it would take many years.
My conclusion is that the bar has been set very low, too low. To be a star performer you do not have to be as dramatically improved as you might think.
I would love to know what percentage of these 569 kids from New York will go on to get a driver’s license.
Apparently, in the US we can expect about a third of those with an autism diagnosis, but no learning disability, to go on to pass their driving test. I fail to see how you can safely drive a car in a busy city if you could not attend mainstream school without an assistant.
People diagnosed with autism at 3 years old versus 11, 21 or even 51 years of age have a completely different scale of disorder. I do not believe many of those diagnosed in later years would have ever had a CARS score of more than 30.
I think if CARS needs to be 30 or greater to warrant an autism diagnosis, people with a lower score should not be given an autism diagnosis. I think this would immediately reduce the incidence of autism in the US by half, back down to the 1 in 100.
Why are not all children given a CARS assessment as part of their diagnosis? An ancestor of mine created a scale (the Baron score) used today to assess the severity of ulcerative colitis when carrying out an endoscopy. If a gastroenterologist can be bothered to give your ulcers a score, why cannot the developmental pediatrician or child psychiatrist?
Perhaps we should add a new label for CARS between 25 and 29; perhaps a “teeny tiny bit autistic”. Yes, you too can be on the spectrum, but don’t confuse your case with that of people with CARS above 36.
-please dont confuse with a CARS above 36..
ReplyDeleteAgreed. People with social and other disabilities wanting to pretend that their experience is common with those with people who bang their heads into a wall and soil themselves regularly.. are incredibly self centered and should be called out.
I think you mentioned that the brocsprout has stopped working after 3 years. Is that still true
One reader said that he found he had to increase the dose by 3X and it still worked. I think this may indeed apply more widely.
DeleteThe effect we saw was more speech, but it wasn't very relevant speech and it made him very happy. Nowadays he is happy all the time and we want relevant speech. The C8/Ketoforce does increase relevant/thoughtful speech. At the moment we have stopped the broccoli sprouts, but the effect was genuine.
"Sulforaphane (SFN) may offer novel clinical options for the treatment of TH17 related chronic inflammatory/autoimmune diseases"
Deletehttps://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6246742/
Thought I should share this paper here since some may find it useful.
oops - I left out the part that most caught my eye : "The inhibitory effects of SFN could be abolished by exogenously supplied GSH and by the GSH replenishing antioxidant N-acetylcysteine (NAC)."
DeleteOur Australian reader who sells her own broccoli supplement has mentioned this also. In our case we were already using 2,400 mg a day of NAC when starting broccoli sprouts and an effect was visible within 30 minutes. The reality is that broccoli sprouts do not only produce sulforaphane and sulforaphane itself has multiple effects.
DeleteNAC has multiple benefits to people who have chronic oxidative stress. There is a GSH/GSSG blood test to measure oxidative stress.
Hello,
DeleteI have a 6yr old son who has limited verbal sounds, and no behavioural problems. He still drinks baby formula, juice, bread and fruits.
Reading this thread, it appears that we could benefit from brocolli supplements, c8/ketoforce, and NAC.
Could someone recommend brands, dose etc for anything that could be mixed into milk or juice to mask any taste. Google brings up a vast amount of options but I have no idea what key ingredient and concentration I should be looking for/needing vs. What are fake or useless products.
Im in south pacific so amazon is usually our main source to find things overseas as a fyi.
Thanks in advance.
AG
NAC and sulforaphane from broccoli are recommended especially for irritability and OCD issues, which you don't seem to deal with right now. They mught of course help anyway, with other things.
DeleteOf the things you mention, C8 is tasteless and can be mixed with almost anything. Broccoli powder is not easy to get taste approved, possibly Enduracell has one flavoured variant that is odd tasting but can work with a smoothie/youghurt/applesauce.
You might consider Fisetin which overlaps sulforaphane in effect and tastes much less.
/Ling
This video suggest US approach is even worse than French:
ReplyDeletehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-XczxdYM4E&t=14m36s
This is a very good lecture and recent. Catherine Lord has been following a group of 200 from 2 to 22 years old.
DeleteThe broad outcome is the interesting part, then she gets into over-analysis of the data.
She splits out the kids into a handful of subgroups based on trajectory. She has some star performers, but most do not end up very well. At age 10 most have Vineland score suggesting functioning at about 3.5 years old.
Dear Peter, we had a horrible thing happen to us. The cell bank where we stored our cord blood screwed up the transport of the cells to the US. The process expanding from this all is exhausting, emotionally draining and horrible. We are currently moving heaven and earth to get her donor cord blood. Anyway, I wanted to attend the TA conference and speak to you but I will be unable to since instead I am attending a stem cell conference in Poland with the goal of achieving this for my daughter. Good luck to you and I hope to see you speak someplace else. Tatjana
ReplyDeleteTatjana, sorry to hear about all those problems. Good luck in Poland.
DeleteSo sorry to hear about your troubles Tatjana! :-/
Delete/Ling
I think the ultimate treatment should be medical/biological. the effect of ABA has been vastly overrated. ABA is extremely expensive and exhausting, not cost-effective at all. I trust things will be much better in the next 20 years. - Yi
ReplyDeleteI didn't knew that quercetin was a GABAaR antagonist, and it seems it also can alleviate hyperlocomotion induced by NMDAr antagonists through this pathway (interesting for schizophrenia):
ReplyDeleteQuercetin Reduces Cortical GABAergic Transmission and Alleviates MK-801-Induced Hyperactivity
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6116474/
/Ling
A question to anyone in the community: What is your favourite sweetening substance / alternative to sugar - and why?
ReplyDelete/Ling
Hi Ling
DeleteI have been using an erythritol + monkfruit blend but I use it sparingly. I am not sure what to think about the effect erythritol has on fructose absorption though.
"https://foodinsight.org/what-is-erythritol/"
Thank you anonymous, I had not heard about erythritol before. I'm not sure I can find it at the usual sweetener shelf at my local store, but probably from some of the bigger supplement vendors on Internet. I like the fact that it doesn't promote cavities.
Delete/Ling
Ling - If I lived in the US I would buy this brand of monkfruit and erythritol. They don't ship to Canada.
Deletehttps://shop.wheatfreemarket.com/Virtue-Sweetener-10-oz-SW01.htm
In the shopper reviews there's a recipe for coconut milk ice cream.
Hi Peter
ReplyDeleteI am not sure if this paper was discussed in your blog before:
"A Preliminary Study Evaluating the Safety and Efficacy of Bumetanide, an NKCC1 Inhibitor, in Patients with Drug-Resistant Epilepsy."
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/30784026
It was an open label study which included >12 year old with one type of seizure disorder (temporal lobe epilepsy) and this is what they found:
"Overall, 70.4% of subjects were responders. The rate of responders was 63% in the first 3 months of treatment and 92.6% in the last 3 months of treatment. Five patients (18.5%) became seizure-free at the end of the study and 14 patients (51.9%) reported a reduced postictal period following bumetanide intake."
Conclusion:
"We found that bumetanide might be an effective and relatively tolerable drug in patients with drug-resistant TLE, and confirm that KCC2 is significantly downregulated, while NKCC1 is markedly upregulated, in these patients"
Kidney function parameter (eGFR) was the only significant response predictor.
"Given the higher probability of treatment response in patients with lower eGFR, we believe finding possible strategies to increase the level of bumetanide in plasma and brain might be helpful for achieving maximum antiepileptic efficacy".
I think this study is interesting as it is a human trial and promising with regard to autism+epilepsy treatment despite concerns I personally heard from the experienced doctor few years ago and epilepsy being one of exclusion criteria in bumetanide phase 3 trial where I live.
Agnieszka, I did suggest a long time ago to Ben-Ari that the onset of epilepsy in those taking bumetanide for autism might be significantly reduced. I still see this as a great additional benefit.
DeleteThe failure of the Nemo study makes him wary of saying anything about epilepsy.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4830840/
It makes perfect sense that KCC2/NKCC1 is implicated in some people's epilepsy.
What we need is the more potent successor to bumetanide.
Agnieszka, we should also recall that Kbr was and is an effective epilepsy therapy. By displacing Cl- ions with Br- ions it is an effective therapy for the KCC2/NKCC1 dysfunction found in Bumetanide responders.
DeleteNice finding Agnieszka!
Delete/Ling
Hello Peter and Community,
ReplyDeleteI just found the following paper earlier today, and really want to go over every small detail as I believe it may be very relevant to us:
https://advances.sciencemag.org/content/5/4/eaau8237.full
This paper appears to link (for the first time I believe) impaired autophagy and reduced cell surface GABAA levels.
Why I think this is very relevant is that you can get to impaired autophagy via many mechanisms, yet if reduced autophagy affects cell surface GABAA, then that may be why we see similar phenotypes (i.e. impaired social behavior, etc.) amongst kids with a variety of known or unknown causes for their ASD.
If anyone (Peter, Ling, Agnieszka, and others) read through it and find any really interesting details, please share and I will do the same.
Have a great day everyone!
AJ
Here is the press release:
Deletehttps://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2019/04/190410162533.htm
This is very interesting and very hopeful in that there is some recent research looking at larger data sets of those with autism versus control subjects and have found little morphological differences between those with autism and those without. In other words, the wiring seems to go where it needs to but the transmission is still impaired.
This is also interesting in that when my son was younger, he had lost his appetite for about two weeks and lost a lot of weight (he was pretty chubby so we were not panicking at first), and one side effect is much better behavior and cognition (at least as observed by me). I thought this was very strange because usually when people are starving themselves they have terrible cognition and are in really bad spirits. Perhaps his fasting kicked in autophagy (fasting inhibits mTOR) and cleaned out a lot of the junk impairing the normal functioning of GABA.
Besides fasting, I think mTOR inhibitors have been discussed several times on this blog. As far as weak and pretty much safe mTOR inhibitors there is resveratrol, pterostilbene, and several others in the "herbal" category. Unfortunately, many of the mTOR inhibiting substances in the herbal category are not absorbed very well so a small amount of resveratrol probably won't do much for mTOR inhibition, even though it might interact positively with the gut microbiota.
Also, as far as stuff that inhibits mTOR that does not require a prescription, I recently came across research showing solid mTOR inhibition via exogenous L-Alanine. There is also Trehalose and Spermidine which also promote autophagy, though not directly via mTOR.
And of course there is Rapamycin which is a drug (a very old one) which is being trialed in humans at low-doses for all kinds of ailments, but I have not seen any papers on completed trials on humans with autism to date though I read before some research groups were looking into doing this.
Last but not least, since GABA is recycled to Glutamate, one can posit that the GABARAP aggregation shown in this paper might be another explanation for paradoxical GABA effects in that if the GABA receptors are not properly migrating to the cell surface of the neuron, they won't be doing anything inhibitory and will only enhance the amount of glutamate circulating in the CNS, thereby also helping to promote hyperactive excitatory glutamate signaling.
I think impaired autophagy is another broad feature that is shared across multiple neurological disorders including most types of dementia, Huntington's disease and likely some autism.
DeleteI will write a post about mushrooms and mild dementia. Mushrooms are rich in Spermidine, which as Tyler highlights promotes autophagy, and also ergothioneine. There is strong association between regular mushroom consumption and a major reduction in the onset of mild dementia.
The Association between Mushroom Consumption and Mild Cognitive Impairment: A Community-Based Cross-Sectional Study in Singapore
https://content.iospress.com/articles/journal-of-alzheimers-disease/jad180959
One side benefit of Verapamil is that it promotes autophagy and it was therefore suggested to possibly benefit Huntington's Disease.
Good morning Tyler and Peter,
DeleteThank you both for your responses!
Tyler - I'm really glad you read this paper, as I always respect and appreciate your thoughts on scientific matters. I too found this to be very interesting and positive information, especially because it seemed to indicate that, for those whose symptoms are caused by this mechanism, there is hope to reverse the symptoms regardless of age.
Your point about the wiring going where it needs to go, but the signals themselves being affected is, to me, the single most important question for each of us. It's a question I think about every day - is my daughter affected by a gross morphological change in her brain or her brain morphologically "normal" but the signaling impaired, meaning that if I can address the signaling issues, the brain structure will allow for significant improvement. I truly hope that for as many of us as possible, that our issues are caused by signaling that can be addressed versus gross structural abnormalities that will be harder to address.
I started looking for mTOR inhibitors late last night, and found the usual suspects, but hadn't seen L-Alanine as an option. If you have the paper that you saw this, would you kindly be able to share? I added Trehalose to my shopping bag on my usual online supplement store, and will add L-Alanine.
Do you have a sense of dosage of Trehalose or L-Alanine that would be relevant (i.e. mgs/kg)? If so, please share
Also, I'm going to look into good sources of Spermidine. Any thoughts on the best sources? I found the following by not sure I trust a supplement called "Ultra Spermidine" where the manufacturer can't even spell "Ultra" correctly on the packaging, so I'm more intrigued by the ingredients (i.e. finding them on my usual supplement site), such as fermented wheat germ extract, Alfalfa Leaf, EDTA
https://lzrlabs.net/ultra-spermidine-org
I also found that Lithium may induce autophagy:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/30323152
Thanks so much Tyler for your insights!
***************************************
Peter - thank you very much for your insights!
Peter, you bring up mushrooms as a source of Spermidine for autophagy purposes. Would you have a sense of what the most effective mushrooms would be in this regard? I'm ready to order L-Alanine and Trehalose, and would like to add mushroom supplements but not sure what the best option would be in terms of Spermidine levels (e.g. Reishi, Lion's Mane, mix, etc.)
I've also found that Simvastatin seems to induce autophagy:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/30417426
Hopefully, if autophagy inducers would help at least some ASD kids, that drugs with this function (e.g. Verapamil) will be considered either off-label or as part of new clinical trials.
Thanks Again Peter!
AJ
AJ, this paper has a nice diagram showing the precursors to Spermidine.
Deletehttps://juniperpublishers.com/gjpps/pdf/GJPPS.MS.ID.555576.pdf
As you will see one of the precursors is Agmatine, which I use and I thing Tyler is also using. Agmatine is a tasteless white powder you can buy from iHerb, it dissolves in water.
I think for mushrooms you would have to eat the real thing not a powder. You have to eat something like 300 g a week. Wheatgerm is often said to be the best source of Spermidine. There is a clinical trial in Germany that used capsules filled with a wheat germ extract.
Hi Peter,
DeleteThanks so much for responding!
I actually used to use Agmatine, along with a lot of other supplements, and I have since dramatically reduced our regimen to Vitamin C (my daughter was deficient as per OAT testing), Pterostilbene, P5P, R5P (Riboflavin - my daughter was low thanks to Tanya's deduction), BHB salts, and C8. I've also put a hold on KE4 as my daughter had a stomach issue and I wanted to be sure it wasn't that.
I appreciate your point about real mushrooms versus powder. My daughter is a quite finicky eater (as I believe all of our kids are) so I will need to work on this, but will plan this with my wife. I'll assume ~45 g per day, which should be manageable. I'll look to see if any mushrooms have higher levels of spermidine.
I also looked for fermented wheat germ, and was excited to find this available. The one I found is called Metatrol, and is astronomically expensive. It makes BHB Esters look cheap. Of course, if it works, the cost is irrelevant. I'll keep everyone posted.
I will therefore conduct a trial of fresh mushrooms (depending on my daughter's reaction to it), and Trehalose as well (and maybe L-Alanine once I see the paper Tyler was referring to), hoping to induce greater autophagy and seeing if there is an impact in my daughter.
The tricky thing with Trehalose appears to be Trehalase breakdown of Trehalose in the GI. I'm hoping enough Trehalose can get past Trehalase breakdown when taken orally to make in impact.
Have a great day Peter!
AJ
AJ
Hi everyone,
DeleteJust to add to my prior post, the more research I do on Trehalose, the more it seems like it's a terrific inducer of autophagy … when applied directly in the lab to cells, but maybe not so much when ingested due to its breakdown via oral ingestion. There appears to be a version being developed (lentztrehalose) that inhibits its breakdown by trehalase, which would be ideal, but it's not available yet. Coupled with the fact that Trehalose appears to feed C. Diff, I think I will look to trial other methods of increasing autophagy, like spermidine via fermented wheat germ, and cooked mushrooms (and possibly L-Alanine or Lithium Orotate, if safe) before considering Trehalose.
If anyone has any other options for increasing autophagy in neurons, please share.
AJ
AJ, many of the food sources of Spermidine are very healthy (brown bread with the wheatgerm, brown rice which includes the rice bran, matured cheese, mushrooms etc). So I think you can slowly shift diet and produce long term health benefits for the whole family. You also have the fruits, berries and vegetables with strong colours like blues, reds, purples, it is the colourant that gives them much of their health benefit.
DeleteThe same applies to many herbs and spices, they have numerous health benefits and make food taste much better and much better than adding salt. Not to forget adding olive oil in significant amounts to food.
Hi Peter, thanks very much. My wife is an incredible cook, so if anyone can find a way to get our daughter to eat some of these items that she doesn't normally have (matured cheese, mushrooms, etc.) it will be her.
DeleteI would appreciate your opinion on one last item - I found that some vendors are selling cold pressed wheat germ oil, but when I looked to try to figure out if it would contain Spermidine, I wasn't able to confirm either way. Wheat germ oil would be much easier to give to my daughter than actual wheat germ - do you think cold pressed wheat germ oil would also contain Spermidine?
Have a great day Peter!
AJ
Sorry AJ, the mTor-autophagy subject is everything but my expertise, so I don't have any intelligent input to contribute with. I stay tuned to see what insights the rest of you have to share! :-)
Delete/Ling
Hi Ling!
DeleteHope all is well.
I'm in the same boat, I'm trying to find out everything I can, and as usual, human biology appears to want to outsmart obvious solutions. I was excited about Trehalose, and was ready to order, until I found out that it is broken down in our GI tract before it can do it's magic, so it's off the table for me.
Spermidine looks like the most intriguing option, and as I looked at wheat germ (since it has the highest Spermidine levels), I saw cold-pressed wheat germ oil as an option, but no one anywhere notes whether or not this includes Spermidine.
I've ordered it anyway, since it's really inexpensive and I was putting in an order of supplements at the same time, so I will trial it and see if I can also find a way to give my daughter wheat germ at the same time. I will also try to add mushrooms to my daughter's diet - oh, this will be an adventure ;)
Who knows which of us is / is not affected by impaired autophagy leading to reduced GABAA receptors, but it's worth trying to address just in case.
Again, hope all is well Ling!
AJ
AJ, you can makes waffles, pancakes and muffins with wheat germ. You can also use wheat bran and rice bran. I doubt there is much spermidine in wheat germ oil or they would tell you.
DeleteAJ, with regards to Trehalose, there was a study looking at microvasculature improvements for Alzheimers at 100g per day with the idea obviously being if the trehalase enzyme is overwhelmed in the upper digestive tract as well as the blood, more of it will be available for its therapeutic value. I posted the study in the comments section.
DeleteOn L-Alanine I also posted the paper in the comments section within the last 6 months.
Hi Peter, thanks so much, great idea about the pancakes, with real (Quebec) maple syrup on it, I think my daughter would have it without much complaint.
DeleteAs far as Wheat germ Oil, that is what I assumed, but I'm giving it a shot just in case.
Also, just in case you are interested, I found the following on BioRxiv relating to chloride levels in neurons and their impact on neurodevelopmental disorders (this paper focuses on impaired KCC2):
https://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2019/04/12/606566.full.pdf
AJ
**********************************
Hi Tyler,
Thanks very much, I will look for both.
I really appreciate your input on these items.
Have a great day Tyler!
AJ
There was a nice review paper on dietary inhibition of mTOR for sure highlighted in this blog. I can’t find it, but this sounds interesting as well:
Delete“Dietary interventions that reduce mTOR activity rescue autistic-like behavioral deficits in mice.”
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27640900
I thought that dietary interventions easy enough to use in daily life are probably not that effective as mTOR inhibitors, but maybe I was wrong.
Here is another interesting review:
“... we discuss recent findings suggesting that strong, chronic inhibition of both mTOR complexes may not be necessary to realize the geroprotective effects of rapamycin. Instead, modestly but specifically inhibiting mTORC1 via a variety of emerging techniques, including intermittent or transient treatment with rapamycin derivatives, or specific dietary regimens, may be sufficient to promote health and longevity with reduced side effects.”
I am not sure how relevant it is with regard to targeting mTOR for autophagy/GABA A function.
Tyler, do you think your son was in ketosis in that period of fasting? This happened to my son for a few times during his migraine attacks. His cognition and executive function were obviously much better and his urinary ketones were always high.
Speaking of GABA A and autism, AJ did you try bumetande?
Off topic, but stil about GABA receptors, did you see the recent baclofen study:
“Baclofen as an adjuvant therapy for autism: a randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled trial”
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00787-019-01333-5?fbclid=IwAR3TtRMiZz62pYHLoWHRoQSJNDs1dOsJPy1TpeYLopYPS-9t_RBzlNja84A
Peter I recall baclofen was discussed in your blog. Did you use it personally or consider trialling at some point?
Agnieszka, I did try Baclofen a few years ago. At that time Monty did sometimes have rigid "claw-like" hands and Baclofen did help this. Baclofen is often used for spasticity so this is logical. It did not seem to affect his autism. We did have a UK paediatrician writing to say that it was very helpful in most of her Asperger's patients.
DeleteHi Agnieska,
DeleteThanks of your insights on this!
Actually, as I usually do, I stayed up way too late last night and found the following:
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs10616-019-00313-6
The good news here is that Cubeb peppers are relatively easy to access, in many forms. Of course, what I don't know yet is cubebene even reaches neurons (i.e. 1. isn't broken down further in the GI, 2. crosses the BBB).
As far as Bumetanide, I absolutely want to trial it, but the doctors I've asked won't prescribe it. I actually looked up clinical trials for Bumetanide last night in the hopes one would pop up here in Canada and the only locations seemed to be France (as usual) and I believe somewhere in Asia (may have been China).
As far as Arbaclofen, we may actually be involved in a clinical trial. It'll be randomized placebo controlled, so we wouldn't know if we were getting the drug or placebo, but I'm open to it if it goes through.
Have a great day Agnieszka!
AJ
Peter, it is interesting about "claw like" hand, possibly I can see something similar.
DeleteAJ, unfortunately there are no bumetanide phase 3 trial sites in Canada, but for European parents interested, the trial is located in several EU countries. Apart from France it is Germany, Hungary, Italy, Netherlands, Poland, Portugal, Spain and the UK.
AJ, Ben-Ari was telling me last week about plans for a trial in China, he has all the patents in place. I do not think there will be trials in North America, because they are not applying for approval from the FDA, due to the high cost and the fact that Bumetanide itself if freely available (with RX) in the US and is off-patent for its original use. There is no way to recoup the approval costs.
DeleteAJ, I wonder who - or what specialty - are the doctors who refused to prescribe Bumetanide for your daughter?
DeleteRecently I've learned something odd: many psychiatrists are afraid of bumetanide just because it is a diuretic and it can lower blood potassium. This is kind of irrational fear as there are no such drugs used in psychiatry so they don't have experience.
On the other hand, internal medicine specialists or GPs deal with such medications frequently and know there's nothing scary. But they are not supposed to be involved in autism care usually.
Did your doctor have a chance to read this recent paper?
"Bumetanide for Autism Spectrum Disorder in Children: A Review of Randomized Controlled Trials."
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/30501497
"Current evidence suggests bumetanide, with close monitoring, may be useful in patients with moderate to severe ASD when traditional behavioral therapies are not available or an irritability-modifying pharmacological agent is not required."
Hi Peter and Agnieszka,
DeleteI have asked 2 doctors so far, one is our GP, and one is an integrative medicine doctor who "specializes" in ASD (saw him only a couple of times, in hopes of getting off-label scripts assuming his specialization would have familiarized him with such options (they did not - he was focused on his own directions).
I will ask our GP again, I have an appointment this week.
Honestly, the fact that it is an old drug, well known and understood, safe (especially with appropriate precautions taken like supplemental Potassium), and can significantly improve some patients in a condition otherwise without treatments, makes it's lack of use an absolute shame.
I do think, as Agnieszka pointed out, that many in the EU are at least able to get involved in the clinical trial. If I lived in the EU, I would absolutely do it.
I do have a thought about here in Canada - I may reach out to some folks here in government or medical associations to see if there is any mechanism to help disseminate the info on Bumetanide and make physicians aware of this as an option. Not offering this as an option to parents who ask, given both safety and potential efficacy of bumetanide, is a real lost opportunity for the kids.
AJ
Since your daughter has an extremely rare "disease" you would think that her doctor would listen to you since you are the expert here. The risks with Bumetanide are very low, it has been tested in children before and you can provide exactly what tests are needed and when.
DeleteI wish you all the luck in this AJ!
/Ling
Hi Ling,
DeleteI agree 100%. Maybe it's a Canada thing, but the doctors I've talked to are really hesitant to prescribe something off-label, even if there is a ton of evidence in support of the rationale and safety. I don't hold out much hope at all for my upcoming conversation.
If anyone knows of a doctor in Southern Ontario that is familiar with using Bumetanide for ASD, please let me know. I would love to trial it.
AJ
I hear you, AJ.
DeleteOff-label prescription for a rare disease won't happen here were I live either. Maybe you can get help with blood tests at least.
/Ling
Hi AJ,
DeleteHere in Barcelona there is a chronic shortage of Bumetanide, I’m not sure if it’s related to the trials or not, but I’ve been lucky so far by going to Pharmacies in other suburbs. But in the case I get stuck I have found this link which you also may be interested in.
https://www.ebay.ca/itm/100Tabs-Miccil-Bumetanide-Salt-Detox-Edema-Swelling-Fluid-Retention/392248767357?hash=item5b53d9337d:g:1V8AAOSwDMZbV9Po
Hi Kei,
DeleteThanks for reaching out. Interesting that there is a chronic Bumetanide shortage in Barcelona. It may simply be that parents in the EU are more knowledgeable to ask for Bumetanide, and doctors more understanding or knowledgeable.
I do hope that the physicians here in North America will learn more about this option, and will be more willing to entertain an off label script, since the Bumetanide is a known and safe drug, and the French trials appear to show some efficacy.
In the meantime, I will go back to natural methods to lower NKCC1 and raise KCC2, and will keep my fingers crossed.
Have a great night Kei!
AJ
Peter, Bloom Sciences is looking for poop samples of children on the ketogenic diet and wanted me to reach out to people. Can you post this on your site for those on the diet. You can find the link on their site if you want to post about this. They are looking to also capture for people who have experience using the diet to get a before initiating the diet sample and a 30 days using the diet sample and you can just chat with them about that.
ReplyDeletePeter, do you think Agmatine is worth a try for someone who may have schizophrenia? The elevated levels in one of the studies concerned me.
ReplyDeleteOh I may have read that wrong. Agmatine may work -- it is the shuttle to Arginine? Can you confirm? Thanks!
DeleteAgmatine has various different effects and it is seen as elevated in schizophrenia and reduced in Autism. That in itself tells you nothing conclusive.
DeleteSome people with schizophrenia report a benefit while others report the opposite. Dosage is likely to be important.
In this recent study, in rats with schizophrenia, it was beneficial. There are likely many sub-types of schizophrenia, just like in autism.
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/24750573.2018.1426696
I wonder who came up with the idea to first decrease NMDArs with MK-801 and then add another NMDAr antagonist (agmatine) on top of that?
DeleteThat study is really disturbing, but the takeaway must be that Agmatine either has some other very beneficial effect
or that the doses given here had the opposite effect on NMDArs.
I woud have been very interested in trying Agmatine given the nice results Peter and Tyler have reported, but as I see schizophrenia as related to my daughter's condition
I have been put off. Aren't nicotinic acetylcholine receptors also meant to be beneficial for schizophrenia?
Not sure about those 5HT3-receptors though. On one hand they are antagonized by Gingko and Ondansetron just like Agmatine, but on the other hand agonized by Resveratrol and Bacopa.
/Ling
Ling, just because a particular protein such as agmatine is high for a particular disease, does not mean it causes the disease, but rather it's higher than normal baseline levels can be a compensating factor for something else going wrong. For instance, if there is an infection in the body you will have higher than normal levels of cytokines floating around in the blood, but inhibiting the immune system by dampening the cytokine signalling could result in death even though you would be addressing the inflammation symptoms. The proper solution would be to go after the virus, not the body's response to the virus.
ReplyDeleteThat being said it is thought in schizophrenia that NMDArs are depressed based on many hypotheses such as higher than normal kynurenic acid levels as KA is a very potent NMDAr antagonist. Compared to Agmatine's other functions in binding to other receptors, it's NMDAr antagonism is relatively weak. The only way to know for sure how exogenous agmatine effects those with schizophrenia is to do a study on that, which to my knowledge has never been done. All I am aware of is the study looking at endogenous levels of agmatine with regards to schizophrenia.
Tyler, is there an effective way to get kynurenic acid lower if that will help? I think you have discussed this before, can you come link or give us more information? Thanks!
ReplyDeleteExercise causes the muscles to convert L-Kynurenine to KA, but since KA does not cross the blood brain barrier, it is thought that lowering levels of L-Kynurenine in the body this way reduces depression as less L-Kynurenine makes it into the brain and L-Kynurenine does cross the BBB. Also, BCAA therapy will block L-Kynurenine since it shares the same amino acid transporter as the aromantic amino acids (tryptophan, tyrosine, phenylalanine) as well as BCAAs which will competitively block L-Kynurenine.
ReplyDelete"This review provides a broad overview of the mechanistic pathways through which the kynurenines interact with these systems, thus impacting emotion, cognition, pain, metabolic function, and aging, and in so doing potentially increasing the risk of developing psychiatric disorders. Novel therapeutic approaches targeting the KP are discussed."
ReplyDeletehttps://www.nature.com/articles/s41380-019-0414-4
Unfortunately behind a paywall.