Memantine, Arbaclofen and now Bumetanide stumble
in clinical trials
(also the less well known Balovaptan, which Roche dropped in 2020).
Place your bets on Suramin, anyone?
Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose
The more things change, the more they stay the same
The first week of the school year
brought two big surprises.
Monty, aged 18 with autism, came
top of the class in the math test. This
is a big win for bumetanide treatment, because 9 years ago Monty was effectively
innumerate. With a
huge effort by his Assistant, he had learnt how to read and write, but
even the most basic maths was beyond him.
That all changed in 2012 thanks to Professor Ben-Ari’s published research on
Bumetanide in autism.
The sad news that week was that the Phase 3 clinical trial of
Bumetanide for autism had been terminated early.
Paris, 7 September 2021 – Servier and
Neurochlore announce that no sign of effectiveness was observed in their two
phase 3 clinical studies assessing bumetanide versus placebo in the treatment
of Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD) in children and adolescents. As a
consequence, Servier and Neurochlore have decided, by mutual agreement, on an
early termination of the two clinical studies in progress.
“The results of the phase 3 clinical studies
are a major disappointment,” declares Professor Yehezkel Ben-Ari, President of
Neurochlore. “Neurochlore’s teams will now analyze in detail the results of the
studies and potentially explore new approaches based on artificial
intelligence, which may enable us to identify sub-populations of people suffering
from Autism Spectrum Disorders, for whom bumetanide could be effective.
Bumetanide also did not pass the NEMO clinical trial, as a treatment for neonatal seizures back in 2015. This then made it a bit awkward to suggest that children with severe autism might lower their risk of developing epilepsy by taking bumetanide. Since this is a blog, I can speculate. I would imagine children with severe autism, who are bumetanide-responders, and who are treated from early childhood through to adulthood with this drug, will have a low incidence of developing seizures. Seizures develop in about 30% of those with severe autism (DSM3 autism) and are the leading cause of their early death.
If such an effective therapy shows no
benefit in a trial with 400 participants, something has gone seriously wrong.
I did ask one researcher friend, who
just replied bluntly that the trial must have been poorly constructed. I thought that was a bit brutal, even by my
standards.
Be honest and admit your limitations
Monty, aged 18, came top in maths
among 15 neurotypical 16 year olds. But
the 45 pupils in the year had been split into sub-groups. Two groups of 15 taking
extended maths and one group of 15 taking core maths. For some reason, because Monty has autism
they put him in the lower group.
Not to worry, after his coming top in
the math test, the school agreed that he can move to one of the upper groups
taking the wider math curriculum.
So Monty is no maths genius, he
came top among the weakest group of typical kids. That is the whole truth, which is different to
the partial truth.
In a similar way, autism
researchers need to accept that there may never be a unifying therapy for
autism, one that benefits everyone.
Concentrate on the responders to
your treatment and forget the rest. If
you over-sell your therapy, you will fail.
As I have said in this blog many
times, most people with an autism diagnosis are not bumetanide-responders. However, a significant minority of those with
severe autism are responders to bumetanide and they will experience a
transformative benefit.
Going from a basket case to a Maths Whizz even?
Apply common sense and don’t outsource everything
In previous clinical trials of
bumetanide, critics said it was all a placebo effect because the parents knew
when they were giving bumetanide rather than a placebo. The bumetanide pill causes the diuresis and
placebo does not.
Why can you not use a different
diuretic as the placebo? Answer that
one!
Many people using bumetanide give
up because of the diuresis. With
schoolkids, the parents will receive complaints from school about excessive
toilet breaks. There will be wetting of
trousers, car seats etc. There will be
anxiety caused by urgently needing a toilet, when none is nearby.
So you need a strategy in advance
of how to deal with the diuresis.
I was told that people in the one trial centre I know about, were told nothing about the diuresis and how to cope
with it. I was even told the clinician
basically told the parents that it was a stupid trial. Not a good way to ensure compliance with the
trial protocol.
So what happens? Some parents will
decide to stop giving the diuretic drug, at least on school days. Maybe they think that a “double-dose” at the
weekend will make up the difference.
Clinical trials are a business
these days and are outsourced to companies that do this and nothing else. Don't outsource the most critical part of your work, or at least supervise it.
Why, oh why, oh why?
I was contacted by a mother from
the southern hemisphere who managed to get Bumetanide prescribed by a pediatrician,
based on Ben-Ari's earlier publications. The diuresis is proving a problem for her family, but the positive
effects are clear, for example her son now uses the word “Mummy”, but only
while taking Bumetanide. If you are a
Mum/Mom, that is a big deal. He also now responds to his own name and is "more present", the hallmark sign of a bumetanide-responder.
She saw me on YouTube and sent me a
long email, including the “why, oh why, oh why?” are more people not giving
bumetanide to their child with severe autism.
There is no good answer.
This Mum, now realizing she is not
alone, plans to continue Bumetanide therapy.
Good for her!
Who dares wins, or at least stands a chance
I was recently sent an email
version of an old post I had written on myelination. The sender had read it and
convinced her doctor to prescribe her son Clemastine.
Her son has a single gene autism
that is known to feature impaired myelination.
I pointed out that in my blog there
are many references to therapies shown to benefit different aspects of the
myelination process, clemastine is just one.
Some of these therapies are OTC, like alpha lipoic acid (ALA) and the
N-Acetyl glucosamine (NAG), that Tyler brought to everyone’s
attention.
Is the young man in question going to improve in function
taking one or all of these 3 therapies? At least the mother in question is
going to give them all a good shot.
Good for her.
Conclusion
I have received quite a few comments and messages about the
Bumetanide trial failure. Many are along
the lines of “what do we do now?” and “how long will we have to wait?”
It looks like it pays to be an early adopter, rather than having faith that clinical trials will be structured and implemented properly.
It has been suggested in the research that a large, 10g, daily dose of the OTC supplement TMG (trimethylglycine) may have an equivalent chloride lowering effect to bumetanide. There is only anecdotal evidence to support this, but it seems to work for our reader Nancy's adult son - good job Nancy! The other potentially chloride lowering drugs are more difficult to obtain than bumetanide itself.
There likely will never be a single unifying therapy for
autism, just like there can never be for cancer. In both conditions it is all about specific
sub-types.
You would think that the previous trial failures in autism would
have caused people to learn this important lesson.
Hopefully, in the future Suramin clinical trials, where two competing companies are using the same therapy, it will not be assumed that everyone must be a responder for the therapy to be valid. From the data, it does look like Suramin improves symptoms in a significant percentage of those with severe autism; but the same can also be said of Bumetanide, based on the earlier trials
In December Monty will commence his 10th year of Bumetanide therapy. We have made short breaks periodically to check it is still needed. For our case of autism, Professor Ben-Ari clearly got the science right and transformed a little boy's future life, something Ben-Ari can always be proud of.
Hi Peter. Thanks for this post. I'm one of those parents who are confused by this sudden turn of events. I just started giving bumetanide about a week back, and was deeply shocked to learn of Neurochlore discontinuing their trials the very next day. Nevertheless, I'm determined to try it out, at least for sometime. I noticed something about my son, which is that he has no diuresis at all. Is this normal ? He is a big boy(weighing 86 kgs), so I increased the dosage from 0.5 mg twice to 1 mg twice. But still no diuresis. What do you think ? Thanks.
ReplyDeleteYes, this does happen, some people do not experience diuresis. One boy I am aware of experienced diuresis initially, but when restarting bunetanide a few years later no long experienced any diuresis, which is even more strange.
DeleteSince diuresis is the main limiting factor on dosing and your son is a big boy, you are right to use a larger dose.
Since there is no diuresis, is the effect within the brain going to occur? Nobody can tell you.
I would give it a month and then decide if there is a benefit.
I use 2mg once a day in my son, who is much smaller than yours. You might even try 2mg in the nmorning and 1 mg in the afternoon; that is what I would do.
Thanks for the reply, Peter. I will try it out for a month and update you if there is any positive response. I'm planning to get his potassium levels checked in about a week, so will try your suggestion of giving 2 mg if his potassium levels are not drastically affected. Thanks again.
DeleteHi Peter
ReplyDeleteAgree with everything in the article just wondering, the alternative TMG, is the potential responder dose 10g not mg since 10g is a massive amount. For example this supplement on amazon is 500mg 1 pill a day for adults, would it be necessary to give 20 pills?
https://www.amazon.co.uk/TMG-500-Liquid-Veggie-Caps/dp/B00I509FZI/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?crid=214W25BDHK6HN&dchild=1&keywords=tmg+supplement&qid=1631902409&sr=8-1-spons&psc=1&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUEzSURRMkw4RldQQlNOJmVuY3J5cHRlZElkPUEwNzI3Njk4VkNNOFFWSDRaS0FUJmVuY3J5cHRlZEFkSWQ9QTA3NzM2NjkzMEw5UTBTM05PTVVSJndpZGdldE5hbWU9c3BfYXRmJmFjdGlvbj1jbGlja1JlZGlyZWN0JmRvTm90TG9nQ2xpY2s9dHJ1ZQ==
Ross it would be 10g of TMG in an adult.
DeleteThis all started with these case studies:
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/349532614_Treatment_experience_in_two_adults_with_creatinfe_transporter_deficiency
You can buy TMG as a bulk powder, in the US. I do not know about the UK.
It is the same issue with folinic acid, the "autism dose" is huge compared to the typical dose.
We do not know if the cheap Betaine HCL has the same effect as TMG.
Hi Peter,
ReplyDeleteDo you have any recommendations for improving cognition besides Bumatenide?
I had tried 2mg of Meccil and my son is
not a responder.
Thanks
SD
SD, autism is highly specific to the individual, so if you treat a core biological dysfunction many things should improve. Most of us are unaware of the precise dysfunctions inside our child’s brain, we can just make educated guesses, based on the dysfunctions that are presented in the research.
DeleteWhat this means is that what might improve IQ in your child might do nothing in another child, or might provide a quite different but important benefit, like solving a sleep related issue.
In my son’s case of autism, he gets a cognitive benefit from bumetanide, atorvastatin, and very low dose Roflumilast. In summer all his anti-inflammatory therapies block the otherwise seasonal loss of cognition.
I think trying different antioxidant therapies and different anti-inflammatory therapies should be expected to give wide ranging benefits, including on cognition. You just keep on trying and till you identify which are beneficial.
In someone with impaired myelination, improved remyelination should improve cognition and quite possibly fine and gross motor skills.
In someone whose key issue is mitochondrial, addressing those issues to improve "power output" in the brain is going to boost cognition.
opinion of prof. antonio persico about bumetadine http://autismo33.it/pipermail/autismo-biologia/2021-September/004292.html
ReplyDeletecarlamarta
Carlamarta, I also like Professor Persico. He is a good example of why Italian doctors are a good choice for autism parents.
DeleteHe is highlighting a fact often repeated in this blog, that if a person has a negative reaction to a drug like Valium/Diazepam, they are likely to be a Bumetanide responder.
So no artificial intelligence is required to identify a bumertanide-responder, just some common sense. Stimulate GABA receptors and observe the response. The normal response is calming, if it is aggression you know GABA is working in reverse and you have a bumetanide-responder.
Valium is usually mentioned, but in Europe you can buy Picamilon over the counter, which also stimulates GABAa receptors in the brain. It only takes one pill and about 20 minutes.
Most doctors just ignore this option. Good to see that Persico actually endorses its use, albeit at a hospital.
Hi Peter, is there any test to conclude on "bumetanide responder"? i recently did give "Neurobasic profile" from Doctor's Data based on urine for my 5 years old. it shows "high - serotonin, dopamine, glycine", "very-high - GABA" and "low - norepinephrine". lab test conclusion report recommends L-theanine as a supplement to help. just reading your note, questions came to my mind whether this test is reliable and if can predict bumetanide response? Appreciate your thoughts?
DeleteRead Carlamarta's comment and link (use google translate to read the Italian) and my answer.
DeleteIf your 5 year old exhibits a negative (opposite) reaction to any benzodiazepine drug or Piacamilon, then it is highly likely the child is a bumetanide responder.
L-theanine does benefit some with autism and many with ADHD, so it is worth trying.
Blood and urine tests often do not tell much about what is happening in the brain, for that you need to test spinal fluid, which is an invasive procedure, so it is rarely done.
Any recommendations of good antioxidant and anti-inflammatory therapies?
ReplyDeleteThanks
SD
There are many antioxidant therapies, common ones include:
DeleteNAC
ALA
Carnosine
There are very many anti-inflammatory therapies, but they are all different and some may make a specific person’s autism worse:
Modified forms of curcumin like Longvida
Biogaia Gastus Probiotic at a high dose
Lactobacillus plantarum 299v probiotic
NSAIDs, such as Celecoxib and Sulindac
Montelukast (Singulair)
Pentoxifylline
Ibudilast
Pioglitazone
Lipophilic (not water soluble) statins – Atorvastatin, Simvastatin, Lovastatin
Hi Peter
ReplyDeleteOn the subject of autism research, I found this company STALICIA, who are claiming not only have they successfully divided autism into 5 subgroups, STP1,STP2 & CP3,CP5 & CP7 (not sure why they jumped 4 & 6?) but are working on 2 clinical trials for subgroups STP1 & 2.
I like the language they speak when they use the term autisms rather than autism, it may be too good to be true or premature commercial boasting but there may be something in it, I don’t know?
Surprised if what they claim to have achieved is true why its not reported more in the autism world.
https://stalicla.com/approach
This looks very similar to what this blog has been advocating. Did you drop them an email? Indeed I cannot find much about them elsewhere.
DeleteThe Stalica lady used to comment on this blog before she set up her company. I think she then deleted her comments. She is the one who first suggested Biogaia Gastrus.
DeleteI hope its not a bluff, it could be everything, could be nothing, I guess we`ll just have to wait and see.
DeleteI guess she has got inspiration from here - one way or the other.
DeleteHi Peter, I tried memantine 5mg for a few days, morning and evening but without any change for the better, even some more pronounced stereotypes, and more anxiety, it did not leave the house, at bedtime it seemed faster. I would like to try TMG instead of bumetanide, Denis took a few years ago and seemed to be more verbal and more connected to reality, less depressed. The problem was that histamine on the face was accentuated, what dose should I give him? we leave the house, and he doesn't want to socialize at all and we want to go to the mountains for a few days. I got gabapentine before, what would you think Peter?
ReplyDeleteIn an adult-sized boy like yours, it looks like 10g a day of TMG is giving a benefit to at least some people.
DeleteThere is no 100% proof that its benefit is the same as bumetanide, but 10g of TMG is reported as beneficial in some people with severe autism.
In spite of the name, Gabapentin does not act on GABA receptors. It does do some interesting things to some potassium ion channels and some interesting calcium channels. Its effect is completely different to TMG or bumetanide, but could conceivable be beneficial, but not much appears in the research literature.
Hi Peter,
ReplyDeleteFirst of all thank you very much for this blog and your insights. I have been reading it for about a month now to understand all the technical details that you have mentioned here.
I want to get some inputs from you on the possible course of action for my son Krishna. He is 3.5 years old, developmentally delayed by 1 to 1.5 years. His mother has Rheumatoid arthritis. She had a flare up when she was pregnant with Krishna in the second trimester.
Krishna is on par with others in gross and fine motor skills but is week on social interactions and speech. He speaks two word phrases and follows instructions with familiar people (parents, teachers) but does not even respond to his name when called by others. He is usually not present and is lost in his own world playing with all things mechanical. He occasionally makes high pitch nonverbal sounds, he is constantly jumping on the couch. We have occasionally noticed him giggle in the dark when he is put to bed.
His pediatrician is resistant to prescribing any medications (We live in Texas). I have asked for anti-fungal medication and bumetanide. She wants to wait until he turns 4 and get him evaluated again (He was given provisional ASD when he was two).
I noticed that he responds well to Claritin but not Benadryl or any 3rd generation anti-histamines. (We give him 5 ml every night). I want to start with other the counter medications like NAC, Clemastine, Biogaia probiotic drops to see if they have an effect on him. It will be great if you can give me some suggestions on the dosage and number of days I should try before I notice any differences (He is about 35 pounds). Also, can you suggest any other medications that you would want me to try?
I will continue to read your blog and understand more to help him in any way possible.
Thank you very much in advance,
Kumar
Kumar, I think you can make a list of therapies from the research that might be helpful.
DeleteNAC is beneficial is many people with autism and is widely used as pediatric treatment in many countries as an anti-mucolytic. You could try 200-300 mg three times a day. You may see some benefits within a day, some other benefits take longer. Make a 2 week trial.
Since you are in the US, it should be straightforward to trial leucovorin (calcium folinate). Dosage is 1 to 2 mg/kg with a max of 50mg, which is not relevant for Krishna. This is the therapy with the primary endpoint of increased speech. This you would try for a month.
I would trial bumetanide say ½ mg once or twice a day. If your son is a responder, he will be become noticeably more present within a month.
Clemastine may help, but it will take a long time to show effect, so in a young child it may be very subjective. You would need to make a trial of at least 3 months.
It may be that your son has the Maternal Immune Activation (MIA) type of autism, or it may just be a contributing factor. No harm reading up on MIA models of autism and see what is beneficial in those cases (albeit in mice).
Biogaia drops may have a small effect very quickly, but it is not dramatic like being a bumetanide or leucovorin responder.
Thanks Peter for your prompt reply. I will try and test if leucovorin has any effect. I read last three papers of Dr. Frye but could not find the label of leucovorin that he used. He just said that it is open label racemic r,l- leucovorin and l-leucovorin works better. There are multiple brands of products available with 800 mcg doses. I am not sure which one to choose, are you aware of any specific brand names that were tested before?
DeleteSince my son is around 16 kgs, I am thinking of starting with a dose of 0.5 mg/kg = 8mg=10 tablets of 800 mcg a day.
Kumar, there is a liquid form sold by iHerb as folinic acid. This is much easier to use than 10 tablets, it is often out of stock, and you will need quite a lot.
DeleteMost people use the drug form, either called Leucovorin, or just generic Calcium Folinate. Generic Calcium Folinate is quite cheap in most countries, in the US Leucovorin is rather expensive.
The iHerb liquid option is not expensive.
Thanks Peter! I found the liquid form on iHerb. I ordered two bottles that should last for 40 days at 1mg/kg/day dosage.
DeleteI am planning to start with 0.25mg/kg twice a day (0.5mg/kg/day) for 7 days and then increase it to 0.5 mg/kg twice a day for the next 14 or 21 days. After this, I will decide if I should continue or not based on the perceptible improvements that we may or may not see in Krishna. If we see improvements, I will continue it for 3 months, else I will abandon it. I read in one of Dr. Frye's paper that slowly ramping up the dosage reduces the aggressive behavior that he has observed in some kids. Does this plan look ok? Should I ramp down the dosage as well instead of abruptly stopping it?
I am planning to start it on a Friday evening that way I can look for any adverse impacts on him on the weekend. I will keep you updated on the changes that we see.
Thanks,
Kumar
Kumar, the plan sounds good. At the end of the trial, I think most people just stop abruptly, but no harm in gradually tapering the dose to zero.
DeleteFor some people the aggression side effect does not fade.
Hi Peter,
DeleteI want to let you know that we started a trial on Leucovorin starting on last Friday. We are giving him 0.5 mg/kg/day. I plan to do this for two weeks and then ramp it up to 1 mg/kg/day. Today is day 6 and we are finding seeing some restlessness and resistant to sleep in the nights. I think these are some of the side effects of it. He is definitely talking a little more than usual.
I was reading more on folic acid deficiency and I heard that sometimes B12 and Folic acid deficiency go hand in hand and if we treat folate deficiency and not B12, then it will lead to neurological damage. My son had anemia with low iron levels last year. I am wondering if the anemia was caused by B12 and folate deficiency. In that case, just giving folic acid and not supplementing with B12 will lead to neurological damage right? I am worried that I am experimenting on my child without understanding all the consequences. What is your impression on my assessment?
Thanks,
Kumar
Kumar, the issue addressed by Leucovorin is not folic acid deficiency in the body, but rather folate transport across the blood brain barrier. In some people they have adequate folate in their blood, but it struggles to enter the brain, the solution is high dose folinic acid (ie Leucovorin, calcium folinate).
DeleteIf your son is talking more than normal then he would be seen a responder, which is great.
You can test the level of vitamins in a blood test if you are concerned about deficiency and this would put your mind at peace.
Hi Peter,
DeleteI want to give you an update on my study w.r.t Leucovorin. After 10 days, my son's talking improved but not very significantly. But he had become extremely jumpy and restless. It appeared as if he had excess energy and he did not know how to spend it. Sometimes, it felt as if his jumpiness was involuntary, i.e. he could not control it. It was very difficult to put him to bed as well. We have decided to stop it.
Our biggest problem with Krishna is that he is lost in his world most of the time. He follows all the instructions very well and speaks one or two word phrases when he really wants something otherwise he is unconcerned. He gets excited about somethings like puzzles or TV but does not share it with anyone. Based on what I read Bumetinide may be appropriate for him. But I cannot get it in the US without prescription. Can you think of any other OTCs that I can in the US that I can try?
He does have some tics like jumping very frequently or using non-verbal words. I want to try NAC or whey to help him with that. I was thinking of purchasing high quality whey, do you know of any brands which have high α-Lactalbumin content?
Thank you,
Kumar
Kumar, there are literally hundreds of OTC supplements that people with autism are taking.
DeleteNAC is a very good OTC supplement to try because it has clear evidence to support it.
Whey protein may help for multiple reasons. The cysteine it contains may well be helpful. α-Lactalbumin is a good idea if there are GI symptoms. I have a lot of experience with NAC, but I have not checked out the whey protein brands.
To be fair to Leucovorin, the effect can take a few weeks to reach its maximum and the side effects may well fade away, in many people. Prof Ramaekers does suggest you gradually increase the dosage over a few weeks and indeed to use it after testing positive for the folate receptor antibodies.
I don't think you can treat autism optimally without prescription medication. This is much easier in the US than elsewhere, but not cheap.
Thought this might be of interest to some readers: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0920121121001959?fbclid=IwAR3jaoQEDqRu6dvBSRgZ-YZO3hcwdTT6VS5ASqAceuP8BsOK8721W-0ezFQ
ReplyDeleteTatjana, there is going to be a post that includes this topic of how you can modify the gut to reduce seizures. You can remove harmful bacteria with an antibiotic like Ciprofloxacin, as in your paper, you can reduce GI inflammation and you use pre/pro biotics to modify the microbiota. They all come into the broader new category of Eubiotics.
DeleteThat post will introduce something called Alpha-lactalbumin, which is whey protein found in abundance in mother's milk and sold as a commercial product.
In effect:
eubiosis - good
dysbiosis - bad
For many with autism, and it seems epilepsy, their gut is in a state of dysbiosis.
Hi Peter,
ReplyDeleteThank you for all your insights.
My son is 3.5 years old and I'd like to start him on Bumetanide and/or NAC.
Since Bumetanide is a prescription medicine here in SA I'm not sure how to obtain it. NAC is easy to get from a health shop. Would you recommend I start there?
Hi Peter,
ReplyDeletein your comment: < Clinical trials are a business these days and are outsourced to companies that do this and nothing else. Don't outsource the most critical part of your work, or at least supervise it.>
there is a balance, these final clinical trials should not be ‘closely’ supervised by the inventor. the final clinical trial (stage-3) aims independent validation of the earlier studies by the inventor, so that there is no bias contributed by the inventor.
For Suramin, we have an issue here, the results by Dr Naviaux was great fantastic (only n=5). the independent study by PaxMedica shows the results were positive, but really not great.
PaxMedica better disclose results at individual case by individual case level, so that other people will know actually what was going.
Yi, there will be a post soon looking at the results of the PaxMedica trial of Suramin, in light of the phase 3 Bumetanide failure.
DeleteThere are remarkable similarities. There clearly are some "super-responders" to both therapies, but when applied to all with a diagnosis of moderate or severe autism, the result is underwhelming. The placebos do so well, you might want to just use that!
The strong response to the placebo is an near constant feature of very large autism trials.
the results by Dr Naviaux, placebo response was small (also only n=5).
DeleteHi Peter, I want to let you know that I found something that works very well for Denis, we have almost a week since we administered 200gr barberine with 2ml milk thistle 2 times a day, baccopa monieri tincture without alcohol, 20 drops of 2 a day .Anxiety disappeared, he wants to go for a walk, he wants to talk to us, he had dinner with us sitting at the table | (my wife cried when he saw this), after he ate he got up and pulled his beautiful chair under the table , I was able to wash his head without problems ... I think that baeberine from my point of view is similar to suramin blocks P2X7 purinergic receptors. It is good that we finally have an alternative to suramin ......
ReplyDeleteHi Dragos, I am glad your son is responding so well.
DeleteBerberine is reported to work well for some people with autism. It also has many general health benefits, particularly useful in anyone a bit overweight. It is even a proposed therapy for Alzheimer's Disease.
Baccopa Monieri is used by some readers and has some effects that overlap with Berberine. Some people get stomach problems as a side effect. This is likely what helped with anxiety.
Milk Thistle is another supplement with numerous metabolic effects.
Hello Dragos. Very interesting. I've also read about berberine, and suramin-like action for countering P2X7 receptors on one of the autism forums.
DeleteTell me what brand of berberine do you give? And does goldenseal also contain berberine or is it important to use berberine?
Hi, juliya we use a brand from Mcs Formulas, 450mg of 95% purity, it has a terrible bitter taste, Denis does not close capsules. It seems that there would be more spectra, viral, bacterial, parasitic, P2x7, we use half a capsule in the morning and the other evening with liverlover bioray or 2ml milk thistle, I hope to help anyone who uses ...
DeletePeter, as long as you think I can give him barberine, it is said that it has a certain toxicity and I think not to damage the liver, it is very bitter and it takes very hard, in a few moments after administration, the histamine on the face disappears completely. even better than cromolin capsules. Do you think I can alternate them with metformin for a while (they are said to have the same properties as barber)
ReplyDeleteDragos, in studies they have used 1500mg a day of Berberine for 6 months with no issues. At huge doses Berberine is toxic, as are many things.
DeleteBerberine is shown to be effective in treating fatty liver disease. NAC also has this effect.
The big issue is that in some people it causes nausea and digestive problems.
You can always measure ALT and AST to check liver function.
Metformin can be beneficial in autism, but tbe effects are not exactly the same. Pioglitazone has some similar effects but works in different way.
Hi Peter
ReplyDeleteYou may be interested in this: Prediction of behavioral improvement through resting-state EEG and clinical severity in a randomized controlled trial testing bumetanide in autism spectrum disorder:-
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2451902221002512?via%3Dihub
Thanks Ross. Hopefully Prof Ben Ari takes note.
ReplyDeleteThere are 2 different ways to predict a responder. EEG and paradoxical response to a GABA agonist.
Peter, awhile ago we trialed memantine with my son. He had a negative reaction: it induced insomnia, and made him even more distractible than usual. I recently came across this paper, which made me wonder if it would actually be worth trialing an NMDAR agonist instead: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1471489214001350. The authors are suggesting that this might be another situation in which there is potentially a problem with either too much or too little.
ReplyDeleteI'm wondering 1) does this make sense to you? And 2) if so, do you have thoughts on an NMDAR agonist to trial?
Meanwhile, the pioglitazone continues to be great for my son's sleep and mood.
Sara, you can have hypo-function or hyper-function of NMDA receptors and the result will look similar. You can also have malfunction of GABAa or GABAb receptors which will also produce another type of excitatory/inhibitory (E/I) imbalance.
DeleteWe even saw in an old post how NMDAR hypofunction could be corrected by targeting GABAb with Baclofen.
Trial an error is not a bad strategy.
Memantine blocks NMDA receptors and the opposite strategy is to use an agonist. There is a long list of drugs trialed in schizophrenia and/or autism.
D-cycloserine
D-serine
L-serine
D-alanine
L-alanine
Aspartic acid
You can also target GABAb receptors to correct lack of NMDAR function using Baclofen
GABAB-mediated rescue of altered excitatory–inhibitory balance, gamma synchrony and behavioral deficits following constitutive NMDAR-hypofunction
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3410621/
Baclofen does work well for some people with autism. I would actually try that one first. As for the NMDAR agonist, it depends what you can get hold of. D-cycloserine is used in autism, some of the others are actually sold as supplements.
Two interesting pieces of research: https://www.eurekalert.org/news-releases/930043?fbclid=IwAR2Kc_LYrhqYFb2DFV6BvqpE0UwAq6ppwSd0yUOmYjrPBuI6ke6C01aludI
ReplyDeleteand
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/brb3.2114
Two interesting new pieces of research:
ReplyDeletehttps://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/brb3.2114
and
https://www.eurekalert.org/news-releases/930043?fbclid=IwAR2Kc_LYrhqYFb2DFV6BvqpE0UwAq6ppwSd0yUOmYjrPBuI6ke6C01aludI
Tatjana, the second paper refers to an idea proposed some time ago as an autism therapy.
DeleteMethod for treating autism spectrum disorder and gastrointestinal dysfunction with 5-HT4 agonists
http://innovation.columbia.edu/technologies/CU17149_method-for-treating-autism-spectrum
Hello, Peter, first I would like to thank you very much for all the information you have shared in this blog. My 11 year old daughter started to take Bumetanide for about 4 months, 0.5 mg twice a day. She seems to make some minor progress in social, speech and math, not dramatic change, but it is slightly noticable. I would like to keep her on bumetanide. Shall I increase the Bumetanide dosage to see if that will bring more progress? Any of your suggestion is welcome. Thanks, Grace
ReplyDeleteGrace, increasing the dose to see if the effect grows makes sense. Only a tiny amount of bumetanide crosses into the brain and this may be insufficient to normalize chloride within neurons.
DeleteYou could try 1 mg twice a day for a month and then assess the effect. Math ability is a very good way to monitor the effect on cognition.
Peter, thank you for your suggestion, I will talk to the doctor. Right now, the main effect from Bumetanide on my daughter are on social and speech, and minor on math. She seems to be more present and interested in her surroundings. Several days ago, she made her a comment when we went to park 'There are so many people'. She had moderate speech delay and rarely.makes comments. So this is a milestone. Not sure if she is truly a Bumetanide responder, but adding Bumetanide seems to be in the right track, but we will try higher dosage to monitor the progress. Thank you, Grace
ReplyDeleteHi Peter,
ReplyDeleteHope all is well!
I've unfortunately been too busy to post regularly for a while, but saw the following article and had to share it:
https://www.the-scientist.com/news-opinion/repurposed-drug-reverses-signs-of-alzheimer-s-in-mice-human-cells-69305
Bumetanide is clearly doing something given your observations and those of others, and the mystery continues based on this article (especially in relation to the recent autism trial results).
There are clearly responders and non-responders in the ASD population, and if a trial (or trials) is unintentionally skewed towards non-responders (since there isn't a relevant biomarker), then the trial itself will fail. If there was a simple biomarker for bumetanide responders, we would be in a much better position.
Have a great day Peter!
AJ
hi peter , i am father of twins boys have 2 years and 2 months , they development in language and social interaction is very delay and have repetitive behavior , they start to walk at 9 months and then they start to run and clamping everything so they meet their millstones at motive skills , i start to checked them with 3 different doctors , two of them said it just delay in development and one doctor said may be it autism , one of my baby have normal eye contact and other one have poor eye contact but getting better , i am so confusing and have very hard time try to get them better i used some vitamins from amazon like speak plus d ( omega 3 ) and other one called FOUCS , they have improved in attention
ReplyDeleteKhaled, diagnosis of autism in very young children like yours is very subjective. In some countries they will diagnose autism extremely early, to help parents get access to free services for their child. Some of these children will turn out to just have been slow starters and will develop normally, but did benefit from the free services.
DeleteIn other countries, with no free services, the doctors want to wait till for 4 or 5 years old before using the word autism.
The non-medical therapy for a 2 year old with autism and a 2 year old with a developmental delay are essentially the same – the child needs lots of 1:1 attention.
Peter
ReplyDeleteMy 9y old son stated taking bumetenide 1mh month ago
From the next day we could see better mood and more spontaneous
But still that's it about it can't see any improvements
Is there anything I can do do to maximize the affect should I try 1.5 mg
?
Riza, you can try a higher dose and see if the effect increases.
ReplyDeleteYou could also stop the therapy for a few days and then re-start to check that the benefit returns. That way you know for sure that bumetanide was what caused the improvement.
Hi, Peter yesterday I talked to Denis's psychiatrist, and I told him that we are fine, except that we do not socialize with the outside, the doctor gave me a prescription with Zoloft to try with the low dose 12.5 gr, I wanted to ask you and it seemed to you, do you think we could try ??? I read that it has so many negative effects for some, I never gave an SSRI. Thanks Peter
ReplyDeleteDragos, no harm in trying Zoloft. You may see a good effect, a bad effect, or no effect.
DeleteIn the research, Zoloft is no better than a placebo, but in anecdotal reports some people do respond well.
Dragos i've heard lots of positive about ssri in Dr.Goldsberg group but the hardest is find the right one and the dose is in my list to.What about baclofen peter said that yuo had success with it
DeleteHi, Diego with bacoflen has a lot of positive things on the side of affection and more moments of love for us, but I have not seen socializing with other family members. He wants to go out and not enter the house, that was good. in summer, but now it's cold and he doesn't want to be in the house for hours. He wants to go out in the yard, but to go out in the city or somewhere he doesn't want to.our problem is non-socialization, that's why we want to try zoloft, we heard that it doesn't work for everyone, we took it but we are afraid to give it, but we can't wait for suramin until 2024. Bacoflen solves something of the puzzle but we stay many unresolved things ....
ReplyDeletehttps://netherlandsnewslive.com/new-treatment-predicts-which-child-with-autism-will-benefit-from-medicine/283273/?fbclid=IwAR2phm6yWRZHzwhebCMTiVKVZW-Bxuu3bkZBNCyOSCguTiu6qc-JnhjC5xI
ReplyDeleteThis is another research on medication for autism
Babu
Hi Peter,
ReplyDeleteHave you heard about this website: https://www.medchemexpress.com/clp257.html
... they seem to sell bumetanide too. i am UK based, so was thinking around how to get access to bumetanide. to be honest, i was leaning more toward baclofen targeting KCC2 upregulation (to avoid diuretic aspect), but neither available in UK.
then i was reading this article https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fncel.2014.00119/full , which mentioned bumetanide and as well some other forms that comes with less diuretic impact. it mentioned CLP257, and searching around took me to that website above www.medchemexpress.com , thought would check with you and your followers here if anyone using it? they seem to sell 5 various forms of bumetanide too, but much more expensive.
Appreciate your thoughts on these references.
thanks
Timur
Timur, that site is selling research chemicals rather than human pharmaceuticals.
DeleteYou are right, Peter. Sorry, i missed the key statement there in red on the back of my excitement. Thanks for highlighting.
DeleteHello Peter
ReplyDeleteWhat foam of Magnesium do you recommend
While on BUMETADINE pls?
I tried Magnesium Glycinate alone it do wonders in sons case
He is calm,less- bedwetting,anxiety potty accidents,hyper.
more-affectionate,calm, eager to learn,interective
Tried other foams of mags alone in the past and it did nothing
I also heard great things about magnesium threonate
Can I stack? Or Glycinate is good enough
Thanks.
Riza, I think it is a case of trying what you have available where you live and see what works best. Some people get negative reactions to some brands, particularly potassium supplements.
DeleteThe important thing is to realize that when taking bumetanide you do need to add back what is lost due to diuresis.
Magnesium has a direct effect on NMDA receptors, which is very likely why magnesium supplements have an immediate beneficial effect in some people.
If magnesium glycinate works wonders, you might as well stick with it.
What s the easy way to monitor urine Sodium level please?
ReplyDeleteCan I use PH test stripes?
To measure the sodium level in urine, you need to collect a sample and take it to a laboratory. It should not be expensive.
DeleteHello Peter--
ReplyDeleteThank you for all the work you've done here--your passion for this really shows.
My daughter is autistic, and has a paradoxical response to a benzodiazepine, and for over a year now I have been trying to convince doctors to try bumetanide. The guide you coauthored with Dr. Wroczyńska almost had one of them convinced, until the failure of the Neurochlore trial. Are you aware of any rigorous studies showing the connection between GABA agonists and bumetanide treatment? I'm hoping more concrete evidence could make a difference but the white paper I've found for that connection is more theoretical.
Thank you.
--Mat MacKenzie
Mat, other UK readers of this blog are using Bumetanide and other therapies via Dr Antonucci in Italy. I have never spoken to him myself, but I am pretty sure he will be able to help your daughter - he also has a daughter with autism.
DeleteJust google "dr antonucci autism"
I would not bother trying to convince UK doctors; their employer, their regulator and NICE are very strongly anti treating autism.
Best to knock on an open door. The consultations are online, so it is very simple. You do not need to speak Italian!
Hi Peter--
DeleteThanks for the quick response and for passing along that info. As it happens I'm in the US--not sure what I did to appear to be in the UK. Right now my kid's care is divided between two doctors, and they both seem open to unusual treatments in theory, but we never actually get around to it. So I'm looking for more evidence to nudge them into action.
Mat, I have several conversations in parallel and somehow mixed two up.
DeleteThere are no rigorous studies about anything to do with autism. A GABA agonist will risk severe self injury so nobody would trial that. The better autism researchers/clinicians all think that a paradoxical response indicates a bumetanide responder. It was this effect that prompted Ben Ari to develop bumetanide as an autism therapy a dozen years ago.
There are numerous case studies published that show some people respond well to bumetanide. You could look them up and pass on to your doctors.
Hello again--
DeleteGood point about the therapy coming from observing responses to GABA agonists. I'll bring that up the next time we talk to the doctors.
I have another question for you. My kid's problems include such powerful cognitive rigidity, especially under stress, that they kept treating it as delusion and using antipsychotics, until tardive dyskinesia forced them to look for alternatives.
The work I can find on bumetanide focuses on repetitive behaviors rather than mental state. She has repetitive behaviors, too, but they're not the main concern, since her cognitive rigidity can lead to such weird ideas and unsafe behaviors that she's living in a locked facility. Do you know whether patients whose repetitive behaviors are helped by bumetanide also gain cognitive flexibility? I've been hoping that the two are closely related but haven't found data to either support or contradict this. Anecdotal support would help but I think this doctor especially respects full double-blind studies.
Thanks again!
--Mat
Mat, it seems there are both super-resonders and responders to bumetanide. People with a measured IQ less than 70 are the main candidates to be super-resonders. They will go from being unable to learn academics (specifically math) to being functional.
DeleteSo I would not consider cognitive flexibility, rather "basket case" or not. If your daughter can already do math, she will not be a super-responder, but she might make subtle improvements.
hi peter
ReplyDeleteeven @ .25 mg bumetedine makes my 10 y old very aggressive and head banging
is that good sign-it s working
should i push through?
Riza, that is a bad sign and you should stop. Perhaps your son has an allergy to sulfonamide drugs like bumetanide.
DeleteYou mentioned that trimethylglycine may lower neuronal chloride levels? I can't find any research on that but i know sometimes it is quite deeply embedded...
ReplyDelete